Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:31 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 pm
Thank you Yisrael and Jorge!

Yes Yisrael, you can call me 'pesky' for short or others call me 'cheeky nutter', 'trouble' or any of those words. I answer to just about anything :p as long as it's kindly meant.

Oh yeah... forgot my phone can record - how silly of me - but it doesn't do wma files. Sorry I really won't have time to do any edits. So even if I can record wma files with an app (?any recommendations??) it will be direct one take recording- mistakes and all included.... Work and other things make me far to busy to make recordings a priority... but I know what you mean it's not easy for you to comment without hearing it. I appreciate it would mean less for me ultimately. Will eventually find an app. Right now the pieces are still too raw anyhow. Needs a lot more attention.

I play a few pieces at the same time due to my short attention span. :p but I do pay critical attention to details while I'm on it. Often I find When I come back to it, i see different things I won't have seen otherwise had I just spent an entire hour going over and over the same piece. I have a weird brain and a nutter I know... but I know that is how I work best. I don't move on till I've learnt it eventually but I take my time and I am not rushing to finish it or not paying attention to details or diluting my attention as such.

I like to learn the details like stopping notes from the start, take it slow and make sure I do them so that it's ingrained in me to stop it. Learning it later is like unlearning bad habits so even harder.

To even insinuate that I would ever play at concert speed is laughable. Starting slow yes but I would probably never play at speed Rob performs it (as posted on this thread)

I googled "Sor rest strokes" and immediately come across Tom Poors essay. So he didn't do rest strokes then... or at least not advocated it in his method.

#5 bar 10 the 2 is used to hold down the E so it cannot be magically deployed to play the A. Or are you advocating a small bar and dropping the joint?

#6 contra morion slur - sorry went back all the way and still couldn't find Jorge' discussion- I'm so sorry but could Jorge PM me the result? Or tell me which page it's on? I literally trawled through and still can't find - obviously being quite blind... incidentally Rob's recording sounds like he plays it rather than slurs it... is that true?
Or has my ears been deceived?

Pesky
Yes, Pesky, the ZOOM Handy Recorder app in the iPhone produces a .wav sound file (and I think the same is with the iRig Recorder app). I then connect the iPhone to my PC using the iPhone standard USB cable and use the iTunes (there will an equivalent procedure in the Android world) to transfer it to my PC. Once the .wav sound file is in the PC, you open it with Audacity (it is a free application) and produce another file in a more compatible format - .wma, .mp3, etc... (function Export in Audacity). You can then post it - in .wma format only - in the Forum using the Attachments button in the post editor.

As for the slur in measure 31 of the #6, see, please my post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109053&start=420#p1184470 of March 13th. It is a tricky slur, indeed, but, with some practice, it can be done easily :)
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
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Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:49 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 pm
#5 bar 10 the 2 is used to hold down the E so it cannot be magically deployed to play the A. Or are you advocating a small bar and dropping the joint?
Pesky
Hi, Pesky,
No, I did not mean to drop the joint. I have a much simpler solution. I simply ignored the fact that the E is a dotted half-note. I did not notice it until you pointed it out. OK, you win.
Actually, since I have the Tecla edition, I think we can be quite confident that the contradiction originated with Sor himself. I therefore feel fairly confident that the fingering is correct and the notation wrong. That makes sense to me in every way. I would be happy to hear other people's opinion.
Nononono noooooo.... :shock:
Yisrael,

I cannot believe Sor would get the notes and notation wrong, fingering is not as important to composer, knowing that most people would do their own thing anyway, however the music...

Analyse it... There is a held base note in every bar - why should this be different? Musically it makes sense to have the E held. Same device further down the piece with base E held over bar line.

I also have Tecla orginal, yes there is a discrepancy probably originating from Sor, but I cannot imagine he wrote an extra dotted minim not meaning it to be there, when clearly in that chord. I can imagine him scribbling on the wrong finger.

Not only that, now that I have looked at #6 and other pieces Sor is also meticulous in his notation on rests, so if the E isn't supposed to be held I'd imagine he'd write a rest, possibly. Not only no.6 but others too, op35 17, 22, op31 lesson 1 etc etc...

However Sor did make a contradictory mistake, so we could be here till the sun burns out. I'm not here to try to convince you, just an opinion. In the end of the day, play what makes you happy! :wink: :P

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:58 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:31 pm
Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 pm
Thank you Yisrael and Jorge!

#6 contra morion slur - sorry went back all the way and still couldn't find Jorge' discussion- I'm so sorry but could Jorge PM me the result? Or tell me which page it's on? I literally trawled through and still can't find - obviously being quite blind... incidentally Rob's recording sounds like he plays it rather than slurs it... is that true?
Or has my ears been deceived?

Pesky
Yes, Pesky, the ZOOM Handy Recorder app in the iPhone produces a .wav sound file (and I think the same is with the iRig Recorder app). I then connect the iPhone to my PC using the iPhone standard USB cable and use the iTunes (there will an equivalent procedure in the Android world) to transfer it to my PC. Once the .wav sound file is in the PC, you open it with Audacity (it is a free application) and produce another file in a more compatible format - .wma, .mp3, etc... (function Export in Audacity). You can then post it - in .wma format only - in the Forum using the Attachments button in the post editor.

As for the slur in measure 31 of the #6, see, please my post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109053&start=420#p1184470 of March 13th. It is a tricky slur, indeed, but, with some practice, it can be done easily :)
Jorge!!! I did it!!!! I Did It!
Today! The plucking with the left!
I kinda imagine walking my fingers across the fret board. Odd imagery I know, but it worked!
I can go to bed happy now. :lol:

:merci:

Ps sorry not yet got formatting sorted to post clips, but the forum rules records part says MP3 and other formats accepted so puzzled now... and must to bed...early start tomorrow busy day...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:58 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:31 pm
...
As for the slur in measure 31 of the #6, see, please my post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109053&start=420#p1184470 of March 13th. It is a tricky slur, indeed, but, with some practice, it can be done easily :)
Jorge!!! I did it!!!! I Did It!
Today! The plucking with the left!
I kinda imagine walking my fingers across the fret board. Odd imagery I know, but it worked!
I can go to bed happy now. :lol:

:merci:

Ps sorry not yet got formatting sorted to post clips, but the forum rules records part says MP3 and other formats accepted so puzzled now... and must to bed...early start tomorrow busy day...
I'm glad you succeeded with the plucking with the LH, Peskyendeavour :D. The first time I posted the #6 I was doing a simple slur and, naturally, in the presence of the the strong E bass, the E treble resulting from the slur could not be heard at all. It was my good friend Monique who called my attention to that and, commenting this slur with her guitar teacher in Amsterdam, Mr. Bart, ended up by giving me a hint on how to do it properly... :).
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:16 pm

Dear Friends:

July is gone and it's time to publish some statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Jul_2017.png

Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in July. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Jul_2017.png

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Jul17.png

The participation in this Topic seems to be stabilizing :D. I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:20 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:51 pm
Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:27 pm
#5 bar 10 the 2 is used to hold down the E so it cannot be magically deployed to play the A. Or are you advocating a small bar and dropping the joint?
Pesky
Hi, Pesky,
No, I did not mean to drop the joint. I have a much simpler solution. I simply ignored the fact that the E is a dotted half-note. I did not notice it until you pointed it out. OK, you win.
Actually, since I have the Tecla edition, I think we can be quite confident that the contradiction originated with Sor himself. I therefore feel fairly confident that the fingering is correct and the notation wrong. That makes sense to me in every way. I would be happy to hear other people's opinion.
Hi, Yisrael:
As I tend to use the fingering that suits me best and that is not necessarily the one in the score, I also had not seen this detail until Pesky called our attention to it, and I realise now that I was not holding the E across the two measures as stated in the socre... :oops:. Anyway, I have the Chanterelle edition of Sor's studies and it also depicts the E being held in measure 10, supposedly with the 2 as in the previous measure, while, at the same time showing the 2 being used in the A in the second beat of the measure - a contradiction. As, in the words of the Chanterelle editor (Table "READ ME FIRST", on page 4, points 5. and 6.), "All original texts and fingerings have been retained, ..." and "All fingering in italics is editorial. ..." and the 2 is not in italics, I have agree with Pesky that this is a mistake, that one should use the 3 for the second beat in measure 10. In fact, the whole measure can be played with the LH positioned in A Minor as shown below.

A Minor Tonic.png

and it is possible to make the transition of a simplified position of E Major in the previous measure, with the 2 holding the E bass (picture below),

E Major simplified.png

to the A Minor position above. I'll have to retrain myself to do just that in the #5 :), but then, I wonder why both editors, Tecla's and Chanterelle's, didn't correct such an obvious "mistake". Who knows, there is, perhaps, another explanation :? ...
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powderedtoastman
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:37 pm

I finally have a new contribution!

I played Nos. 6 and 7 at my local guitar society's last open mic about a month ago, and I'm relatively happy with the results in spite of usually having limited capacity to play well at these things, and using a loaner guitar (which was very nice IMO!). So I'll share here!

Number 6:

Youtube


Number 7:

Youtube

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:52 am

powderedtoastman wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:37 pm
I finally have a new contribution!

I played Nos. 6 and 7 at my local guitar society's last open mic about a month ago, and I'm relatively happy with the results in spite of usually having limited capacity to play well at these things, and using a loaner guitar (which was very nice IMO!). So I'll share here!

...
Right, Steve, well done, congratulations, a nice contribution which is drawing a lot of people into the Topic. Only one remark if I may - in your rendition the no. 6 - one of the most beautiful pieces of Sor's Opus 60, indeed - the E treble resulting from the slur in measure 31 is not sufficiently heard as it is hidden by the concurrent, higher volume, E bass. Indeed, in order to be heard, you have to do the slur and simultaneously pluck the first string with your i finger (see, please, my post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109053&start=420#p1184470 of March 13th).

Keep going. There follows the no. 8, quite easy indeed, and the no. 9, which is a sort of continuation of the no. 8 but a bit more elaborate. As for me I'm still struggling with the no. 16. Being Summer time doesn't help, too many people around... :(

With your contribution the table of posted pieces is now the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Aug17.png
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powderedtoastman
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:44 am

Thanks for the good comments Jorge!
I will watch out for those slurs, interesting to use the i finger at the same time, I would not have thought to do that!

I guess I still need to go back and do nos. 4 and 5! For completeness of my personal collection I will be doing 6 and 7 on my romantic guitar like the others I've done so far as well.

I am also working a lot on Op. 44 and some Giuliani and Carulli so I will take my time.

I agree that number 16 is pretty hard! I am confident I could play all the pieces up to that one now, but those odd groups of 32nd notes near the end are a strange and interesting challenge! I think number 16 is even more difficult than some of the ones that will follow it.
Op. 44 Nos. 7-8 are a little shorter and actually might help with this one, except those 32nd notes.
If you haven't done so, I also recommend practicing the voices separately for this one!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:03 pm

Dear Friends:

August is gone and it's time to publish some statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Aug_2017.png

Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in August 17. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Aug_2017.png

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Aug17.png

Well, it's summer time, not that many posts this month... Except for Steve (powderedtoastman), no one seems to be playing Sor's Opus 60 pieces. Nevertheless, the number of people reading the posts in this Topic is still reasonable. I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:46 am

Hi Jorge
I haven't posted but still working on 4-5-6. But as I'm working on other Sor works as well as Carcassi it's not just this I'm not expecting huge progress from myself anyway.
I'm still working away alongside in the background...
I also tried recording and playing back as you suggested - and indeed teaching myself a few things I wouldn't have noticed had I not done that! So thanks for the tip.
However the phone mic makes the sound very tinny and thin....
Mostly I'm too embarrassed to post the horrible sounding thing that I even had to delete from myself having heard it once and self criticised it heavily.
Practicing again...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:05 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:46 am
Hi Jorge
I haven't posted but still working on 4-5-6. But as I'm working on other Sor works as well as Carcassi it's not just this I'm not expecting huge progress from myself anyway.
I'm still working away alongside in the background...
I also tried recording and playing back as you suggested - and indeed teaching myself a few things I wouldn't have noticed had I not done that! So thanks for the tip.
However the phone mic makes the sound very tinny and thin....
Mostly I'm too embarrassed to post the horrible sounding thing that I even had to delete from myself having heard it once and self criticised it heavily.
Practicing again...
Hi Peskyendeavour:

No worry and no hurry... and I'm happy to know you are busily practising pieces of Sor and Carcassi :D. I do not play a single piece of Carcassi, unfortunately. But from what I read, it seems that he is one of the best of the romantic period. I looked into Wikipedia and it's amazing the number of compositions he wrote.

Concerning the recordings with your smart phone, you should not get a tinny and thin sound. I would suggest a few things:
  1. Don't use Voice Memos, the inbuilt voice recorder of the iPhone (or equivalent Android), download a free app specialized in audio recording - I would suggest ZOOM or iRig Recorder. Both are easy enough to use.
  2. Set the volume of your smart phone in the middle of the scale.
  3. Put the smart phone on a stand some 50 cm from the hole of your guitar.
  4. Start recording... :)
You can hear back the record in the phone itself, but don't use its inbuilt loudspeakers, use a earpiece instead. Both app will produce a .wav sound that you can transfer to your PC for editing purposes (to cut loose ends, for example) or just to produce a new file of the type .wma which you can then upload to the Forum if you want. Audacity is the free audio editing program for the PC that I would recomend. Very simple and intuitive to use as well.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:47 pm

Ah......
So that's where I went wrong... using voice memo. Darn.
... Ok now have both zoom handy recorder and iRig downloaded ... try again tomorrow...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:33 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 2:35 pm
...
One last remark. When checking again the score, I noticed that I'm missing in my play the last D in measure 12. What a shame :oops:! I really need to prepare another record of the #12.
There you are, as promised, my second version of Sor's Opus 60 #12 for you all to listen to. This time I'm playing it a bit faster than before, but may be this was not necessary. Please comment :), I'll appreciate.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V2).wma
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:30 pm

I was not happy with my first version of Sor's Opus 60 #14 posted on July 11th. I noticed later that the values of notes in the first beat of measure 10 were not fully observed, and also, that I was playing the E bass in measure 19, and I shouldn't, because this note is tied with the E bass in the previou measure. So, I decided to post a second version of this study for you all listen to and comment:
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V2).wma
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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