Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:08 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:33 pm
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V2).wma
Wow! Beautiful phrasing, melody brought out clearly, interesting dynamics. I like the lighter, slightly more rapid way of playing this piece (meaning, I like better than my approach). You have a little bit of tension in the left hand in measures 20–23, which is audible and some slight deviations from the rhythm. Your playing is noticeably more fluid, and the interpretation is becoming richer.
I am working on the same piece, and hope to post very soon. I just need some time to practice seriously. I hope this weekend.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:25 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:08 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:33 pm
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V2).wma
Wow! Beautiful phrasing, melody brought out clearly, interesting dynamics. I like the lighter, slightly more rapid way of playing this piece (meaning, I like better than my approach). You have a little bit of tension in the left hand in measures 20–23, which is audible and some slight deviations from the rhythm. Your playing is noticeably more fluid, and the interpretation is becoming richer.
I am working on the same piece, and hope to post very soon. I just need some time to practice seriously. I hope this weekend.
Why, thank you, Yisrael for your nice and encouraging words :D. This #12 is indeed a challenge if you want to play it a bit faster, specially in the counterpoint in measures 20 and 21. As an amateur it is quite difficult for me to play them, always, in a controlled and clean way and within the tempo. But it is worth the effort because this piece really stands out when you play it in a, as you say, "lighter, slightly more rapid way" :D.

But now that you are rehearsing it, let me point out to you a couple of details in the score, if I may:
  1. In measures 2 and 6, the first notes are dotted ones and they are followed by notes played with your thumb. Now, if you play the first thumb note, in the third string, in the usual way, that is, apoyando (rest stroke), you will inevitably cut short the duration of the previous dotted note in the second string. So, the first thumb note must be done in a tirando way.
  2. In measure 18, the C in the first beat is a half note, so, it should ring during the whole of the measure. This means that finger 3 must be kept pressing the 3rd string in the fifth fret and use the remaining three LH fingers to play the remaining three notes.
These are simple things Steve (powderedtoastman) called my attention to upon listening to my first rendition of the #12- see, please, his post below. But, may be, who knows you have noticed already these details, in which case, please disregard my comments above :).
powderedtoastman wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:55 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 7:39 pm
I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #12 for you all to listen to and comment.
...
...
At any rate I have some comments for you for number 12.
First and foremost, nice job! It's a tricky one.

For me one of the most important things in the first section of this piece is the separation of the voices.
In the second measure (not counting the initial pick up note as a measure) where the lower voice comes in on the offbeat... I recommend using the thumb for that even though it's on the second string, and I say don't be too shy with that voice, since that's where the motion is at that moment!
That may help to make it sound like it's coming from a second guitar entirely. Also practice the voices separately, and if you have a friend to play with, try making a duet out of it as a fun exercise. I think that will open up your ears to something a little more that you can squeeze out of this piece.

And my other comment is 10 measures into the second section (once again not counting the pick up note as a measure), the lower voice is a half note C on the third string. Be sure to hold that for the whole measure!

Other than that just keep up the great work!
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:09 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:25 am
  1. In measures 2 and 6, the first notes are dotted ones and they are followed by notes played with your thumb. Now, if you play the first thumb note, in the third string, in the usual way, that is, apoyando (rest stroke), you will inevitably cut short the duration of the previous dotted note in the second string. So, the first thumb note must be done in a tirando way.
  2. In measure 18, the C in the first beat is a half note, so, it should ring during the whole of the measure. This means that finger 3 must be kept pressing the 3rd string in the fifth fret and use the remaining three LH fingers to play the remaining three notes.
powderedtoastman wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:55 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 7:39 pm
I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #12 for you all to listen to and comment.
...
For me one of the most important things in the first section of this piece is the separation of the voices.
In the second measure (not counting the initial pick up note as a measure) where the lower voice comes in on the offbeat... I recommend using the thumb for that even though it's on the second string, and I say don't be too shy with that voice, since that's where the motion is at that moment!
That may help to make it sound like it's coming from a second guitar entirely. Also practice the voices separately, and if you have a friend to play with, try making a duet out of it as a fun exercise. I think that will open up your ears to something a little more that you can squeeze out of this piece.

And my other comment is 10 measures into the second section (once again not counting the pick up note as a measure), the lower voice is a half note C on the third string. Be sure to hold that for the whole measure!
Jorge, thanks for your comments.
  • I follow Amaya's method of first studying the melody separately, and making sure that I know it. Then the problem of the negra puntada (dotted quarter note) in the 2nd and 6th measure will be immediately obvious.
  • Interesting that you use Sor's method of using the thumb for the bass. I also do that. In such cases, it is obvious that the thumb should play tirando.
  • As for separating the voices, I am trying very hard, but with limited success. There is a way of having a different voice quality in the treble than in the bass, but I have not had much success with that. I do not know how to get good tone quality when plucking the strings perpendicularly. I am experimenting with playing the bass staccato where possible. That is probably how I will finally record.
Thanks again for your comments. And by the way, I was inspired by your playing. I will try to copy some of the things that you did.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:57 pm

Ah, Yisrael, I forgot to mention that it might help you to stay in the second string in measure 9 up to the first note of 10 (do a slide with finger 4) and then proceed in string 1 until the last note of measure 11 where you should return to the 2nd string. Of course, if you do that (see, please, the rendition of Prof. Edson Lopes in You Tube), the fingering indicated in the score is going to be different... but easier to do :D.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 am

Hiya, I must confess I'm not so good with this recording melarky. I'm too scared, facing the micro-phone i may as well be having live audience. I freeze up and get it all wrong.

Anyway, in my own living room with no one and no machine listening I've moved onto 7,8,9.

I have a question for 9 regarding bar 13- LH fingering? Especially C# to DF# then C at the end.

Do you use 1 for C# from beginning of bar so 4 for G and 2 & 3 for F#D and slide 1 up to C...

Or do you use 2 for C# and deal with the awkward string jump to F# with same finger to play F# D?

Or ...?

Peskyendeavour
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:25 am

PS... I've enjoyed listening to you guys playing. All so much better and inspirational to my learning. Thanks all for your beautifully recorded renditions.

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 380
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 am
Hiya, I must confess I'm not so good with this recording melarky. I'm too scared, facing the micro-phone i may as well be having live audience. I freeze up and get it all wrong.

Anyway, in my own living room with no one and no machine listening I've moved onto 7,8,9.

I have a question for 9 regarding bar 13- LH fingering? Especially C# to DF# then C at the end.

Do you use 1 for C# from beginning of bar so 4 for G and 2 & 3 for F#D and slide 1 up to C...

Or do you use 2 for C# and deal with the awkward string jump to F# with same finger to play F# D?

Or ...?
Hi, Peskyendeavour:

Yes, I also become nervous during a recording session, but a bit less now than when I did my first recordings :) . That is natural and more so when you are not yet confident with the piece your are rehearsing. My advice to you is to play at least twice, each day, all the compositions you have learned so far. After some time you will see that you are playing much better the compositions you learned first. There is a connection between brain, ears and fingers that allows the memorizations of the piece by sheer repetition.

Regarding the questions on LH finger positions in measure 13 of the #9, see, please my post http://classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewt ... 5#p1189637 of March 31st. And I should just add that in the last C of the measure I use the 1, indeed. But I do not slide it into the new position, I just disarm the position indicated in the second picture of the post above and, while doing so, I lift the 1 from the 2nd fret in the 2nd string (finger position 1.2.2 - my convention! :)), and put it rapidly in the first first fret (finger position 1.1.2). But may be you could as well slide it into the new position. I hope my explanation does not sound too confusing... :D
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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