Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:08 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:33 pm
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V2).wma
Wow! Beautiful phrasing, melody brought out clearly, interesting dynamics. I like the lighter, slightly more rapid way of playing this piece (meaning, I like better than my approach). You have a little bit of tension in the left hand in measures 20–23, which is audible and some slight deviations from the rhythm. Your playing is noticeably more fluid, and the interpretation is becoming richer.
I am working on the same piece, and hope to post very soon. I just need some time to practice seriously. I hope this weekend.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:25 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:08 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:33 pm
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V2).wma
Wow! Beautiful phrasing, melody brought out clearly, interesting dynamics. I like the lighter, slightly more rapid way of playing this piece (meaning, I like better than my approach). You have a little bit of tension in the left hand in measures 20–23, which is audible and some slight deviations from the rhythm. Your playing is noticeably more fluid, and the interpretation is becoming richer.
I am working on the same piece, and hope to post very soon. I just need some time to practice seriously. I hope this weekend.
Why, thank you, Yisrael for your nice and encouraging words :D. This #12 is indeed a challenge if you want to play it a bit faster, specially in the counterpoint in measures 20 and 21. As an amateur it is quite difficult for me to play them, always, in a controlled and clean way and within the tempo. But it is worth the effort because this piece really stands out when you play it in a, as you say, "lighter, slightly more rapid way" :D.

But now that you are rehearsing it, let me point out to you a couple of details in the score, if I may:
  1. In measures 2 and 6, the first notes are dotted ones and they are followed by notes played with your thumb. Now, if you play the first thumb note, in the third string, in the usual way, that is, apoyando (rest stroke), you will inevitably cut short the duration of the previous dotted note in the second string. So, the first thumb note must be done in a tirando way.
  2. In measure 18, the C in the first beat is a half note, so, it should ring during the whole of the measure. This means that finger 3 must be kept pressing the 3rd string in the fifth fret and use the remaining three LH fingers to play the remaining three notes.
These are simple things Steve (powderedtoastman) called my attention to upon listening to my first rendition of the #12- see, please, his post below. But, may be, who knows you have noticed already these details, in which case, please disregard my comments above :).
powderedtoastman wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:55 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 7:39 pm
I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #12 for you all to listen to and comment.
...
...
At any rate I have some comments for you for number 12.
First and foremost, nice job! It's a tricky one.

For me one of the most important things in the first section of this piece is the separation of the voices.
In the second measure (not counting the initial pick up note as a measure) where the lower voice comes in on the offbeat... I recommend using the thumb for that even though it's on the second string, and I say don't be too shy with that voice, since that's where the motion is at that moment!
That may help to make it sound like it's coming from a second guitar entirely. Also practice the voices separately, and if you have a friend to play with, try making a duet out of it as a fun exercise. I think that will open up your ears to something a little more that you can squeeze out of this piece.

And my other comment is 10 measures into the second section (once again not counting the pick up note as a measure), the lower voice is a half note C on the third string. Be sure to hold that for the whole measure!

Other than that just keep up the great work!
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:09 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:25 am
  1. In measures 2 and 6, the first notes are dotted ones and they are followed by notes played with your thumb. Now, if you play the first thumb note, in the third string, in the usual way, that is, apoyando (rest stroke), you will inevitably cut short the duration of the previous dotted note in the second string. So, the first thumb note must be done in a tirando way.
  2. In measure 18, the C in the first beat is a half note, so, it should ring during the whole of the measure. This means that finger 3 must be kept pressing the 3rd string in the fifth fret and use the remaining three LH fingers to play the remaining three notes.
powderedtoastman wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:55 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 7:39 pm
I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #12 for you all to listen to and comment.
...
For me one of the most important things in the first section of this piece is the separation of the voices.
In the second measure (not counting the initial pick up note as a measure) where the lower voice comes in on the offbeat... I recommend using the thumb for that even though it's on the second string, and I say don't be too shy with that voice, since that's where the motion is at that moment!
That may help to make it sound like it's coming from a second guitar entirely. Also practice the voices separately, and if you have a friend to play with, try making a duet out of it as a fun exercise. I think that will open up your ears to something a little more that you can squeeze out of this piece.

And my other comment is 10 measures into the second section (once again not counting the pick up note as a measure), the lower voice is a half note C on the third string. Be sure to hold that for the whole measure!
Jorge, thanks for your comments.
  • I follow Amaya's method of first studying the melody separately, and making sure that I know it. Then the problem of the negra puntada (dotted quarter note) in the 2nd and 6th measure will be immediately obvious.
  • Interesting that you use Sor's method of using the thumb for the bass. I also do that. In such cases, it is obvious that the thumb should play tirando.
  • As for separating the voices, I am trying very hard, but with limited success. There is a way of having a different voice quality in the treble than in the bass, but I have not had much success with that. I do not know how to get good tone quality when plucking the strings perpendicularly. I am experimenting with playing the bass staccato where possible. That is probably how I will finally record.
Thanks again for your comments. And by the way, I was inspired by your playing. I will try to copy some of the things that you did.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:57 pm

Ah, Yisrael, I forgot to mention that it might help you to stay in the second string in measure 9 up to the first note of 10 (do a slide with finger 4) and then proceed in string 1 until the last note of measure 11 where you should return to the 2nd string. Of course, if you do that (see, please, the rendition of Prof. Edson Lopes in You Tube), the fingering indicated in the score is going to be different... but easier to do :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 am

Hiya, I must confess I'm not so good with this recording melarky. I'm too scared, facing the micro-phone i may as well be having live audience. I freeze up and get it all wrong.

Anyway, in my own living room with no one and no machine listening I've moved onto 7,8,9.

I have a question for 9 regarding bar 13- LH fingering? Especially C# to DF# then C at the end.

Do you use 1 for C# from beginning of bar so 4 for G and 2 & 3 for F#D and slide 1 up to C...

Or do you use 2 for C# and deal with the awkward string jump to F# with same finger to play F# D?

Or ...?

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:25 am

PS... I've enjoyed listening to you guys playing. All so much better and inspirational to my learning. Thanks all for your beautifully recorded renditions.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 am
Hiya, I must confess I'm not so good with this recording melarky. I'm too scared, facing the micro-phone i may as well be having live audience. I freeze up and get it all wrong.

Anyway, in my own living room with no one and no machine listening I've moved onto 7,8,9.

I have a question for 9 regarding bar 13- LH fingering? Especially C# to DF# then C at the end.

Do you use 1 for C# from beginning of bar so 4 for G and 2 & 3 for F#D and slide 1 up to C...

Or do you use 2 for C# and deal with the awkward string jump to F# with same finger to play F# D?

Or ...?
Hi, Peskyendeavour:

Yes, I also become nervous during a recording session, but a bit less now than when I did my first recordings :) . That is natural and more so when you are not yet confident with the piece your are rehearsing. My advice to you is to play at least twice, each day, all the compositions you have learned so far. After some time you will see that you are playing much better the compositions you learned first. There is a connection between brain, ears and fingers that allows the memorizations of the piece by sheer repetition.

Regarding the questions on LH finger positions in measure 13 of the #9, see, please my post http://classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewt ... 5#p1189637 of March 31st. And I should just add that in the last C of the measure I use the 1, indeed. But I do not slide it into the new position, I just disarm the position indicated in the second picture of the post above and, while doing so, I lift the 1 from the 2nd fret in the 2nd string (finger position 1.2.2 - my convention! :)), and put it rapidly in the first first fret (finger position 1.1.2). But may be you could as well slide it into the new position. I hope my explanation does not sound too confusing... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:56 am

I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #16 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (8 months and 8 days in the guitar and still holding :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 16 (V1). Learning period: 28Jul17 - 22Sep17. Comment: The most difficult piece to memorize so far (being Summer didn't help either). And there also these quite fast notes in measures 38 and 48 everybody complains about. If you master these measures and play them within the allocated tempo (which I did not succeed entirely), the rest is not that difficult. Nevertheless, I'm not happy with this rendition and I plan to post a second version later on.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V1).wma

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 22Sep17.png

My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #17 study.
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Peskyendeavour
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:14 pm

I'm trying out both iRig and HandyRec. As recommended.

IRig playback is really quiet, so I can't even hear what quality - I can't seem to adjust volume and phone volume is max already. The user interface isn't very clear and slightly more tricky to understand / find bits and features (some of them you have to buy and have to register just to get manual)

HandyRec is ok volume wise - sound still a little tinny but better than voice memo! Good user interface.

So can't really compare in truth as I can hardly hear the playback of iRig - any suggestions on making playback volume louder?

The reason I ask is because iRig seems to give better quality of sound but I'm not entirely sure

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:23 pm

Hi, Peskyendeavour:

Let me try to help you. The iRig has a button which should be set as shown in the picture below.
The iRig microphone.JPG
The head of the micro should then be set some 40 cm from the hole of the guitar and the iPhone (or, for that matter, any Android phone) should be set with its volume amplification roughly in the midle of the scale. But this can be adjusted by playing some notes in your guitar and verifying that the audio volume scale in the HandyRec does not go too much beyond the green area. If yes, then the volume of the iPhone should be decreased (or increased if the captured signal is too weak). In my case I'm using an Apple accessory, a Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter ($9.00) to connect the the iRig to my iPhone.

The next thing is to do your record and transfer the .wav audio file from your iPhone to a designated folder in your PC. I wouldn't know how to do it on an Android smartphone, but if you have an iPhone you should connect it via a Lightning to USB Cable to a PC and start iTunes to synchronize it. You then select the iPhone on the menu on your left and click File Sharing. The ZOOM app should appear on a list of apps on the right side of the screen. If you select it, all .wav audio files on the iPhone associated with the app will be displayed and you can then drag and drop into the folder the one you want.

Once the .wav file in the PC, you open it with Audacity, edit it if you want and audio export it in .mp3 or .wma formats for listening or posting (.wma only) in this Forum. During the Audacity session you adjust the PC volume as you see fit.

And that is all :D. Please, let me know if you still have any doubts.

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Peskyendeavour
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:49 am

Oh I see you have a special iRig microphone as an attachment?
I'm just using my phone to record straight through its own microphone. No gadgetry...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:29 am

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:49 am
Oh I see you have a special iRig microphone as an attachment?
I'm just using my phone to record straight through its own microphone. No gadgetry...
Oh, I'm sorry, when I saw iRig on the start of your post, I assumed, wrongly, that you had acquired an iRig microphone and was using the HandyRec app. It was the iRig app, after all :). I agree, the iRig app user interface is more complex as they assume you will be editing the sound file directly within the app, which is a mistake as you cannot do any sensible audio editing using the tiny screen of your smart phone, instead, you should use Audacity in your PC. My advice, then, is that you use the HandyRec. It is a simple but good enough audio recording app. And, I've checked already, you can use the smart phone internal microphone to capture the sound. In order to obtain an audible recorded sound you have to experiment with the volume of the smart phone and its distance to the guitar. But, basically, it should be enough to set the volume in the middle of the scale and the distance around 40 to 60 cm. Once you transfer the file to your PC you can then use the PC to adjust the volume so as to listen comfortably to your record.

Obviously, if you have a condenser microphone that you can connect to your phone - and the iRig microphone can connect directly to an iPhone - you will get a better audio recording :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Yisrael van Handel
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Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:26 pm

Sor, Opus 60, #12.

This is an intriguing piece. It does not introduce any especially difficult techniques, and yet it is very difficult to play with a smooth melodic line. Measure 20 requires moving the hand in an absolutely straight line as the fourth finger slides from fret 3 to 5 to 7.
I spent a lot of time on this piece because I could not get a smooth melodic line. I am stopping here and moving on. This seems to be the limits of my abilities at the moment. I would especially welcome comments about how to improve smoothness and create a more legato melody line.
I made a lot of experiments. I originally starting playing the bass line with the thumb only, as Sor would have done. But I found that I did not have enough accuracy in the thumb. So I went back to using the modern technique of using the thumb primarily for the lowest three strings. I tried playing with the head stock very high, but while I like that position, I found it impossible to produce good tone with the fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings, so I had to lower the head stock to achieve a more oblique angle of attack. I tried various ways to create greater separation between melody and bass line, but nothing was particularly successful. Thanks to Jorge Oliveira's excellent example, I played this piece with a lighter touch than I normally play, and that helped a lot. I am anxious to hear your suggestions on overcoming the limitations of this recording.
Sor_Op60_#12.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:53 am

Hi Yisrael:

Yes, ou are right, the #12 is the most difficult of Sor's Opus 60 pieces I've encountered so far, the reason being the counterpoint measures towards the end. But it has a strong "character", if I may say so, with beautiful melodic lines and which gives me particular pleasure to play, even if almost always with mistakes and blurred notes here and there. I've listened to your rendition and I think you are being too hard on yourself :). I wish my first rendition was as good as yours, Yisrael. Nonetheless, I would like to add some comments in the hope that they might be of value to you.

To begin with, I would say that, in spite of it being written during the classical period, in this particular piece one should not, perhaps, stick too much to the selected tempo. Let me try to explain what I mean by this. This piece has two sections. I have nothing to say concerning the way you play the 1st section, my observations concern the 2nd section and how to accent its phrases and melodic lines. In the 2nd section, it seems to me, we have three parts (I think one can call them phrases, no?). The first part is composed of measures 9-12. In this part, I sort of start slow and increase the speed and volume until I reach a climax in the high C of measure 11, slowing down afterwards until the very defining D in measure 12. There should follow a slight pause, to let the D ring a bit, before you proceed into the 2nd part, which starts with the low D still in measure 12 and goes up to measure 16, with the D as the pedal point. You will notice that the melody in this part, though being played along the 4th and 3rd strings, sounds similar to the melody in the first part so one should play it, in terms of speed, volume and highlighted notes, exactly as you did before. There follows a very brief pause before you start the 3rd part of this section - measure 17 onwards. In this part, during the counterpoint measures you can also play up to a climax in the third beat of measure 20, pausing here slightly (or not) before tackling the rest of the counterpoint. Finally, please have a second look as how you play measure 23, it is not sounding nice to me, the thirty-second note has to be really fast and the last three sixteenth notes also.

To finalise my comments, I think you do well in moving forward into Sor's Opus 60 #13 (very nice as well), provided you continue playing every day the #12 (as well as the others). In doing so you will notice improvements along the time. I did... :D

Best regards,

Jorge

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 27Sep17.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:09 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:53 am
<snip>
To finalise my comments, I think you do well in moving forward into Sor's Opus 60 #13 (very nice as well), provided you continue playing every day the #12 (as well as the others). In doing so you will notice improvements along the time. I did... :D

Best regards,

Jorge
Jorge,
Many thanks for your comments and encouragement. I am indeed moving on to #13. Of course, I disagree with your liberties in timing, but I understood the general direction of your suggestions.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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