Segovia and Barrios

[carlos]

What are your insights on why Segovia didn't play the marvelous piece La Catedral, which was handed to him by Agustin Barrios. And was it pride or arrogance he never played Joaquín Rodrigo´s Concierto de Aranjuez, because it was not dedicated to him? Do you think he might have ever played the Aranjuez Concierto privately?

[Dave]

From what I read by Richard Stover, Segovia was very impressed by La Catedral but didn't play it because Barrios was "competition" back then.

[jstroud]

i heard the same thing in that he rarely if ever played anything by barrios because some thought he was better than segovia and segovia did not want the competition...but totally speculative on my part

[David_Norton]

Segovia didn't play Barrios' music, or the Aranjuez, for the same reason that John Williams didn't play Britten's Nocturnal, and Bream didn't play the Dodgson Partitas. And for that matter, the reason why the Rolling Stones didn't play I Wanna Hold Your Hand. It's all a matter of "territory".

Segovia maintained his position as King of the CG Hill by not playing music written by (or for) other people after about 1920. (The only exceptions I know of are the HVL pieces, Lauro's Vals #3, and the Nortena by Gomez-Crespo). Everyone else around, including Barrios, played & recorded music which was written for Segovia, which in a way was paying homage or making obeisance to Segovia's contributions to the repertoire. It was 100% ego-driven, and 100% effective.

Barrios is not the complete victim in the "La Catedral" incident that he is so often portrayed as being. If Barrios had REALLY wanted Segovia to have a copy of the thing, he could have written it out for him in a couple of hours, even do it overnight and meet again for coffee the next morning, rather than writing a letter to his friend asking HIM to mail back a copy, which in 1921 Argentina would take several days or weeks.

[Hybrid]

Segovia didn't play Barrios' music, or the Aranjuez, for the same reason that John Williams didn't play Britten's Nocturnal, and Bream didn't play the Dodgson Partitas. And for that matter, the reason why the Rolling Stones didn't play I Wanna Hold Your Hand. It's all a matter of "territory".

.

Newsflash; Segovia was not a composer. Barrios was a brilliant composer.

No shared territory whatsoever.

H

[David_Norton]

Newsflash back atcha: Segovia WAS a composer, of over 100 pieces, please see the separate thread on that. A few of Segovia's pieces are easily on a par with some of Barrios' output, but admittedly only a few. Best-effort-to-best-effort? Barrios wins.

Be that as it may, the "territory" I was speaking of wasn't compositional skills. I am referring to the bigger scope of people making a living as performers. Many people feel it is a big bad thing that Segovia didn't play Barrios' music. My point is, Segovia wasn't singling out Barrios for this; he consciously avoided playing any music written by/for other guitarists after around 1920, with the few exceptions I mentioned earlier. He had plenty of music of his own, he had no need at all for Barrios, nor to implicity assist in Barrios' career. And, Barrios clearly wasn't in all that big a hurry himself to give his music to Segovia, or else he'd have written out a clean copy of La Catedral that very night. There's a real possibility that some of Segovia's later enmity toward Barrios stems from his failure to provide Segovia with that music in 1921.

In the same way, Fernando Sor didn't play music of Dionisio Aguado even though they were good friends, John Williams didn't/doesn't play music written for Julian Bream (and vice-versa), David Russell doesn't play things written for David Starobin (also vice-versa), Benny Goodman didn't play tunes associated with Tommy Dorsey's band, the Beatles didn't play music by Jefferson Airplane, and so forth. That's the "territory", or ownership-by-implied-consent if you prefer, which I am speaking of. It also is a sort of brand-identity, or product differentiation.

[Gil_Wade]

This whole story/discussion just goes to show how much we know/don't know about what happened less than a hundred years ago. Also how quickly people make up their mind after hearing one or two stories that may or may not be true.

The story as I read it, and David Norton alluded to, is that Barrios met Segovia one night while Segovia was touring South America. Barrios played La Cathedral for Segovia who expressed an interest in the piece. Barrios had sent his last copy to a friend in the jungle. Knowing that Segovia was leaving the next morning and that it would take several days for a letter to get to his friend and the copy returned. Rather than staying up the night and writing out a new copy, Barrios chose to send a letter to his friend. As far as we know Segovia never got a copy.

I have read other stories which tell of Segovia meeting with Barrios during multiple tours to South America including once visiting Barrios in the hospital. He brought a gift for Barrios consisting of several sets of gut strings knowing that Barrios had problems getting them locally. That doesn't sound like jealousy to me.

This discussion went on forever on another forum until a different David Norton (seems to be at least two of them!) posted his experience with Segovia. Seems that this David Norton had been a grad student under Richard Stover and knew all the stories about Segovia "hating" Barrios. So David Norton was present at the last masterclass Segovia gave at UCLA(?). After the masterclass David was talking to Segovia and finally asked the question that everyone was wondering and yet afraid to ask...why didn't Segovia play any Barrios? Segovia, who was very tired from age, traveling and the masterclass, said something about "Only little pieces...". Stover was present also and was very upset at Norton...accusing him of undoing his whole lifes work. Later on Stover decided that Segovia didn't say anything to contradict his book. I told this story to my teacher who had met with Segovia several times. His reaction is at this stage of life Segovia had hundreds of pretty little pieces that he could play...what he was looking for at this time is large, orchestral pieces.

Some of the contributions from those who actually knew Barrios said that he was a scattered being and maybe alcoholic. He had a girlfriend who he asked to wait for him...he couldn't wait to marry her...20 years later he came back to find her. He was easily distracted...the type person who would send for a copy somewhere out in the jungle where it has no way of showing up in time rather than take the time to draft another copy. Problem is...we will never know the whole truth.

Final story: Virginia Luque is one of a handful of people who actually studied under Segovia. Later on in her life when she met with the maestro he would ask her to play. One of these times she played everything that she could remember. She was drawing a blank and about to give up when another piece popped up in her head. She started playing it immediately without thinking. About half-way through she realized that it was a Barrios piece and almost froze. Once the piece was completed Segovia said "That was nice. Who wrote it?" When Virginia responded "Barrios" Segovia said "Do you know any more of his pieces?"

[Joe de V]

If we can believe comments by other guitarist and news writers it appears that Segovia did not like Barrios - my take being that Barrios was an accomplished composer - Segovia never achieved that status - as well as being an excellent player.It is reported that in 1920 when both men were in Buenos Aires they met in more than one ocassion and Barrios visited him there, played for him and gave Segovia a dedicated copy of the sheet music for "La Catedra".Segovia took it with him back to Spain and never played it in his concerts. Segovia is also quoted as saying that Barrios was not a good composer of guitar music. When you are dealing with Giants in the Artistic world there is no surprising that there is always some room for artistic envy as well as actions that appear as defense mechanisims. Try to place yourself in Segovia's position what would you do? It there was professional rivalry (which apparently there was plenty of it, at least in Segovia's mind) would you play that composition of your musical "rival" who also happen to be a world renown guitarist? In any event much has been written about both of this great musicians and all of us in the CG community are greatful for their contribution regardless of their personality shortcomings.
For further follow up on Segovia's life go to http://www.pellegrinlowend.com

[David_Norton]

This discussion went on forever on another forum until a different David Norton (seems to be at least two of them!) posted his experience with Segovia. Seems that this David Norton had been a grad student under Richard Stover and knew all the stories about Segovia "hating" Barrios. So David Norton was present at the last masterclass Segovia gave at UCLA(?).

No, there's just one of me. Same person. Although, I am a Gemini. And I weigh enough for there to be two of us.

The class was at California State University Northridge, April 1982 as I recall. UCLA never had a serious CG degree program.

David

[David_Norton]

Here is the post Gil Wade is referencing:

"Everyone here knows the quote: "In public, I heard Segovia say that 'Barrios was not a good composer for the guitar.'" Richard Stover has repeated this statement for years, as a mantra of sorts.

But that's not the whole story. This post is. You see, as fate would have it, I was the student who asked Segovia about Barrios that afternoon, and this excerpted quote is his response to me.

The context is this. Segovia had done a masterclass at California State University - Northridge (CSUN). I'm thinking this was early 1981 or 1982. Not important. The class was concluded and I, along with 20 or 30 others, was up in front hovering. Circumstances were such that Segovia was answering a few questions from the students. I found myself not 4 feet from him, with Stover (my teacher at the time) right next to me.

I asked, "Maestro, what is your opinion of the music of Barrios which has become so popular recently?" His wife asked me to repeat it, because naturally they were not really listening. I did, she translated.

Segovia paused, and it was clear that he was struggling for the right words. "Barrios .... he was not .... he did not write .... all small pieces (he gestured with his hands, thumb and forefinger indicating smallness) .... not like Ponce, who wrote large. No, in comparison to Ponce or Castelnuovo, Barrios is not good composer for la guitarra."

Stover only really heard the last bit. He was several shades beyond furious with me for asking: "You HAD to ask HIM, in front of God and everyone!! And he just dismissed my entire life's work. Thank you very much!!." And he stomped off. A week later, he apologized for over-reacting, and said "So what? He's an old man, who cares what he thinks? People with any brains know better about Barrios."

And no one who wasn't there that afternoon would ever have known of this conversation, if Stover himself hadn't spent the following years restating it over and over, and then attacking it.

So there you have it, at least as well as I recall the incident from 23-24 years ago. In context, a 90-year-old man, who was obviously very fatigued from 3 hours of teaching, speaking in English (which was never his strong point), and his actual statement is not nearly as damning as the sound-bite Stover has published over the years.

Make of it as you will.

DN
July 2, 2005"

[Non Tabius]

Gee thanks for that Dave.From the little that I have read about the life of Segovia it seems that Barrios was not the only Composer that was placed before him in conversation ,and I suppose just as in the case where an Elivis affectionado hears anything ,no matter the context which is contrary that affection will be used againt the celebraty who says it.Here is what Segovia said about Julian Arcas in casual coversation in a barber shop many years ago when talking to a priest who was as Arcas fan"Still ,it would be unfair to limit the beauty of this instrument to mere accompaniment of folk song and dances ........to the elemental kind of music Julian Arcas played.Don Julian was aspontaneous artist,not a cultivated one.The scope of the guitar has to be widened,music of greater significance should be played on it ,such as Fernando Sor,Mauro Giuliani or Francisco Tarrega , wrote for it."
My point being ,had there been a local pro Arcas reporter in the barber shop the headlines whould probably have read.
"Arrogent Young Artist Slams Don Arcas" .One so Segovia also coments on Tarrega and Fortea but one has to see the whole picture as the Dave has taken the trouble to share and put things into perspective in a factual manner in the Barrios case.
My extracts from Sergovia an Autobiography of the years 1893-1920 Marion Boyars London.

[carlos]

Ok that Segovia didn't play Barrios according to the "territorial" hypothesis. But what about the Concierto de Aranjuez, not by another guitarist and composer that could have been competition? The Aranjuez is a national treasure of spain, and Segovia was spanish. Isn't that why he returned to playing spanish guitars in concert after a long period of just playing his german Hauser?

[David_Norton]

The Aranjuez situation fits the pattern exactly. It was dedicated to Regino Sainz de la Maza, not Segovia. RSdlM was one of Segovia's absolute primary rivals in Spain, so there was no way in Hades that he would ever perform it.

But consider Joaquin Rodrigo's reaction: rather than getting mad at Segovia, saying he was wrong for not recognizing Aranjuez as a Masterpiece, and then ignoring him, what did Rodrigo do? He courted Segovia, he schmoozed him, and then wrote "Tres Piezas Espanolas" in preparation for his second concerto, the "Fantasia par un Gentilhombre", both of which are dedicated to Segovia. You'll notice that Segovia was all over this concerto, performing it and recording it soon after completion. And at that point, he'd "won" the Battle of Egos. RSdlM had his concerto, and Segovia had his personal one as well. (And Rodrigo was gaining fame/royalties from both, so it worked out nicely on his side as well).

When you say that the Aranjuez is a "national treasure of Spain", bear in mind that it didn't really earn that status until the 1970s. By that time, age had taken its toll on Segovia's technical armory, and at over 80 years old he simply could not play it by then.

To me, it seems that Segovia's refusal to play the Aranjuez was beneficial to the CG world in two ways. First, it led to Rodrigo composing the aforementioned pieces, which he'd not have had reason to do if he weren't trying to get himself into Segovia's good graces. Second, it allowed other younger performers to stand in the Aranjuez spotlight on their own, and not under the shadow of Segovia's recording of same. So rather than a terrible tragedy that Segovia did not perform Concierto de Aranjuez, I see it as an overall boon to the CG world.

[Euan Hannah]

Perhaps Segovia was a bit arrogant and had so much power or clout in the classical guitar world that he used this to manipulate situations to suit his own agenda.
Perhaps he thought that these pieces were too difficult to play to the required performance level of the rest of his repertoire at that time. I don’t suppose we will ever know but it is interesting hearing a first hand account of the “Barrios was not a good composer” comment.
Whatever the context of his remark, in my opinion, Barrios composed some of the most beautiful guitar music ever written.

[Joe de V]

Ok that Segovia didn't play Barrios according to the "territorial" hypothesis. But what about the Concierto de Aranjuez, not by another guitarist and composer that could have been competition? The Aranjuez is a national treasure of spain, and Segovia was spanish. Isn't that why he returned to playing spanish guitars in concert after a long period of just playing his german Hauser?

As far as I have being able to determine regarding the changing of instrument from a German made to a Spanish made was primarily due to the the wood acoustic properties of spruce vs cedar and the Ramirez brothers method in the making of the instrument. I don't believe that there was any national pride-preference in this decision. Segovia was not an easy person to deal-with in terms of his artistic demands. He is reported had complaint constantly about the wolf notes (a characteristic of most stringed instruments where some notes , particularly in the treble , are weaker and less sonorous than others) his rift with the Ramirez lasted several years and in a recital program in 1974 he advertised that he will be playing a Fleta-made guitar but performed in a Ramirez-made guitar.Segovia performed on Ramirez guitars up to his death in 1987.