10-Strings Guitar

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.

Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby HNLim » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:15 am

hyz wrote:Certainly, I understand that... :D

I think there are often too many people out there try to learn to fly before they learn to walk well.

hyz


You are very correct, especially like some people out there having played one Japanese guitar and remarked that I quote " I find most of the Japanaes guitars lack of good sustain and projection on the high registers".
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby viktor van niekerk » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:56 pm

BEGINNERS' METHOD/REPERTOIRE BOOK: UPDATE

Dear all,

If you have followed this thread, you will be aware of the fact that I have been writing a method and repertoire book for the 10-string guitar aimed particularly at those newly or recently transitioning from a 6-string guitar to a 10-string guitar. I'm happy to report that the ever-expanding book is making good progress and will undoubtedly be available to purchase both in electronic form or as a hard copy within a matter of a few short months.

Considering the delay, please keep in mind that this is no small feat and not an endeavour that (as a scholar, artist and teacher) I would be content to take on half-heartedly. So far the book contains roughly in the vicinity of 250 exercises, about 40 compositions by 20 composers from all periods (including works published nowhere else), and encompasses roughly 300 pages. While the book has been written in the spirit of Narciso Yepes's work -- that is to say without taking scholarly or artistic liberties and without denaturing Yepes's 10-string guitar by changing its string setup/configuration (and moreover with understanding of Yepes's technical approach) -- still, nothing contained in the book is merely a replica of work originally done by Narciso Yepes. Invaluable as his scholarship is, undoubtedly, but particularly for the professional or very advanced amateur, his transcriptions for the 10-string guitar are too technically advanced for the general amateur or for the professional who has just newly adopted the 10-string guitar. Instead, what I have endeavoured to do (and thus the delay) is to investigate the repertoire of the guitar and the lute (among others) and to select a broad repertoire of attractive pieces that lend themselves to the playing of the additional strings, without taking musical liberties, and without posing very great technical difficulties. There are of course sound pedagogical reasons for this which need not be mentioned here. Suffice it to say, I have not merely "plagiarized" the autograph manuscripts of Yepes's transcriptions and neither have I merely presented my own concert repertoire, which again would not be level appropriate. Rather, I have selected the most ideal stepping stones for those beginning their journey on the 10-string guitar. This involves not only a lot of time and sensibility in the investigation and selection of repertoire, but much more time spent on original, scholarly work in transcribing the Urtext tablatures, adding unwritten embellishments that would have been played and are required to do the music justice, typesetting/engraving the sheet music as well as working out and including intelligent fingerings showing not only sensible use of the basses, but also when not to use them and when/how to dampen them.

This work I am doing parallel with preparation for recordings as well as two other publications, a more advanced level anthology of 6 baroque lute suites/sonatas (in partial fulfillment of a Master's in Music Performance), and a newly edited publication of the complete concert and pedagogical guitar works of Fritz Buss (a student of Yepes whom he had publicly praised, along with Godelieve Monden, as his two top students and two of the best guitar teachers in the world).

I hope anyone awaiting the publication of the method/repertoire book will appreciate why it is necessary to wait a little longer for quality, as I am not content to reproduce other people's scholarship and/or to churn out an amateurish book with less than a year's work behind it.

Those first 10 individuals who already contacted me will of course receive their complimentary copies ASAP and of course everyone else who subsequently contacted me will then also be notified where to purchase the book online. A little more patience please.

Best regards,
Viktor van Niekerk
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby sgraham924 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:40 pm

I have a question. Where can you get a 10-string guitar? Who builds them these days? I'd like to get one, but have no idea where to look.
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby dng » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Where can you get a 10-string guitar?


search the web for Bartolex guitars or Cathedral guitars
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby Neris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:50 am

Hello, guys.

I am writing to you to ask for your support on something that many may consider is very important.
During the past year I had the chance to meet a very interesting person. Student of Narciso Yepes for around 18 years, who not only has mastered the 10 string guitar but also has learned directly from Yepes, he is considered the best student Yepes ever had, has the full support of Yepes family, has access to all unpublished manuscripts, info, instruments etc from the master himself.
When Yepes was really affected by his health issues, it was this person who represented/replaced him during his concerts. Sent by the master himself.
Am talking about Ismael Barambio, who has amazing credentials studying with great masters of the classical guitar, but specially with Yepes.

Ismael is finishing for the first time in history a method for the 10 string guitar according to Yepes. Nobody in the world has his knowledge and full support from Yepes family. He has been working on this method for a long time and finally decided to finish it. Personally, it is unbelievable how many things any guitar player can learn from him just by listen to the large quantity of stories he has on the topic.
Even now after struggling with some health issues, his technique and sound is flawless.

The reason am mentioning this is because in order to publish this method we would have to cooperate a little. The publisher is doubting how many people would be interesting on a book/s like this, since the 10 string guitar is not a main stream instrument.
And one of the reason of this is the lack of a real guitar method where is shown the techniques, tunings, repertoire, etc.

Ismael asked me if is possible that as many people as possible would send an email sharing their interest on the book to be published, you don't have to compromise yourself to buy the book, just mention your background and why you would think this book would be helpful for the guitar community.

I think this method had to be released a long time ago by Yepes himself, but it didn't happen.

Please if you consider this interesting, take 10 minutes and send an email sharing why you think this method should be at reach of any of us.
Include your name, and background. It will be used only to show the publisher there is people in need of it.

Mod edit: email address removed. Please PM poster for it if you need it.

Just to let you know guys, I don't have any commercial activity with Ismael and his book, I personally will buy some books to promote his work.


Thanks for your time.

Neris Gonzalez
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby GeoffB » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:11 pm

Hi Neris, welcome to the forum. Could I invite you to introduce yourself here?

Geoff
Classical Guitar Forum.

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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby GuitarVlog » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:23 pm

Neris wrote:The reason am mentioning this is because in order to publish this method we would have to cooperate a little. The publisher is doubting how many people would be interesting on a book/s like this, since the 10 string guitar is not a main stream instrument.
And one of the reason of this is the lack of a real guitar method where is shown the techniques, tunings, repertoire, etc.


Three of my friends launched books and CDs using Kickstarter.com. All three projects were for what folks would describe as small and limited audiences but they raised substantial funding.

Someone might want to investigate that for him.
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby viktor van niekerk » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Neris wrote:Neris Gonzalez


Neris,

That is good if Ismael's method book will be published (a book about Yepes's guitar technique in general, but not specifically a book of elementary-intermediate repertoire for the 10-string guitar for beginners). You are right in saying this should have been done by Yepes (if he had only lived longer or not been so busy), and you are right also in pointing out the fact that his techniques are not known to the guitar world, which is truly a loss and a disadvantage to many.

However, for some of us who know the details behind the history, it is really ridiculous and offensive that you make such false and overblown statements such as that no one else in the world knows as much about Yepes technique as Barambio does. Obviously this is the language of propaganda.

You leave out the fact that it was Godelieve Monden who toured the world with Yepes performing and recording as his duo partner. You leave out that it was Godelieve Monden who made all the Schott, Edition Narciso Yepes, books. You leave out that people like Godelieve Monden and Fritz Buss were longtime direct disciples of Yepes from as early as 1960, not sent away to learn with Jorge Fresno. And you leave out that it was Fritz Buss who acted as Yepes's chosen co-teacher at his master classes in Paris. (Barambio also had master classes with Buss.) And you leave out that it was Godelieve Monden and Fritz Buss whom Yepes mentioned in various interviews, books, and in signed reference letters I have here, stating that he considered those two not only among his top students, but, in his opinion, as two of the three best guitar teachers in the world. (I can happily send you all these documents and references if you don't believe me.)

Surely Ismael deserves his recognition and I take nothing away from his technical skill. But I say that it is nonsense when you make such overblown statements as "Nobody in the world has his knowledge" etc.

There are perhaps other (non-artistic) reasons behind why people equally (or more) capable of writing such a method have not already done so, reasons that are not public knowledge. (Though, I say again, it was Godelieve Monden who made ALL the Schott Yepes editions. Moreover, Fritz Buss also composed and published 30 Etudes based on Yepes techniques, aimed at teaching the basics of his method to young students. Another top Yepes disciple, Jose Luis Lopategui published a book on scales and arpeggios in which the latter part was based on Yepes's technique. Moreover, Yepes had some great Japanese students, and many many more Yepes editions not available in the West were published by his disciples in Japan, including a pedagogical work on Yepes's technique.) Still, I very much welcome and encourage Barambio's more extended book on Yepes's technique. But could you please watch the propaganda??? and promote the book without making obviously exaggerated statements? Thank you.

Regards,

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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby HNLim » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:24 pm

I have a question! Can I play 10 strings guitar music on a 7 strings guitar?

I still find the 10 strings guitar intimidating!
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby randalljazz » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:27 am

HNLim wrote:I have a question! Can I play 10 strings guitar music on a 7 strings guitar?

I still find the 10 strings guitar intimidating!


some of it. but you can not experience the wondrous resonance.
"You should have heard what I tried to play."---Thelonious Monk
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby sgraham924 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:03 pm

Anyone else think that the 10 string might eventually replace the modern guitar as we know it since you can still play 6 string stuff on it, it sounds better, and you can do more with it?
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby soltirefa » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:44 pm

sgraham924 wrote:Anyone else think that the 10 string might eventually replace the modern guitar as we know it since you can still play 6 string stuff on it, it sounds better, and you can do more with it?


I don't. I play 10-string and enjoy it. But I am even more convinced that six strings is the perfect number of strings. It's not a black & white thing though. It's a tradeoff, just like most things in life. You give up one thing to get another. For me, less is more. I would far prefer to play six string repertoire on a 6-string guitar. It's more focused, less guitar to hassle with ... not even a close decision.
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby viktor van niekerk » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:02 pm

sgraham924 wrote:Anyone else think that the 10 string might eventually replace the modern guitar as we know it since you can still play 6 string stuff on it, it sounds better, and you can do more with it?



Yes and No.

Because both will continue alongside each other just as grand pianos and upright pianos do, serving different functions. If that sounds a bit condescending, rather, consider that both the grand piano and the 10-string guitar feature extended tonal range, extended dynamic range, and timbral/colourisric properties not heard in the others. However, what we will see is that more and more of the serious concert artists start adopting 10-string guitars, especially recording artists and those who perform big auditorium recitals with large and varied programmes, because it gives more sustain, and because it really extends the repertoire to include most of the lute works (not just the odd popular piece here and there), as well as multi-string guitar music of the 19th century and great modern works. That is, the serious concert artist will accept it once the instrument is better understood for its true nature and rescued from the gimmicky treatment it has suffered in recent years at the hands of certain amateur enthusiasts who adopted it for the wrong reasons, knowing next to nothing about it, let alone about musicological issues like period performance practice of baroque music. If that happens, if there are musicologically well-informed performance editions and method books, and if it is understood that the 10-string guitar is to the 6-string guitar as the modern piano WITH PEDAL is to the old piano without pedal, then we might even see it replacing the 6-string guitar in serious performance contexts just as the pedal of the modern piano became de rigeur despite the added technical difficulties it brings.

Also, the 10-string guitar (while it has the benefits and potential you mention) will only be widely accepted and make real progress once it is understood and accepted that it has a standard tuning, which is based in the science of acoustics and also based in musico-technical reasons. I mean to say it will only make real progress when there are foundations to build on: once all new compositions, transcriptions, exercises and literature on the instrument is built upon those foundations, rather than having those foundations constantly kicked over and rebuilt from scratch for some other idea about how to string up the instrument that is acoustically and musico-technically inferior to the original design. Instruments like the piano, violin family or orchestral wind instruments have thrived because they have been more or less standardized for centuries. There is never an issue that a composition, transcription or pedagogical work for the violin is only good for some violins but incompatible with others. By comparison, instruments like Carulli's "decacorde" never took off because the standard guitar repertoire could not be played on it due to the displacement of the 6th (E) string to the 8th string position. By the same token instruments of the lute family, which had no standardized tuning/stringing system and a constantly changing number of strings, died out after their brief popularity in the Renaissance and baroque periods, to have no continuous, living tradition or living repertoire, only to be resurrected centuries later because of the historical performance movement of the late 20th century. The 10-string guitar will go the same way, as a "museum" instrument, for historical performance of music by Ohana, as long as disparate and incompatible camps continue to tear it apart, and as long as guitarists are drawn into the fallacy that there is not a standard tuning, but instead a so-called "Yepes" or "Modern" tuning as well as "Romantic" or so-called "baroque" tuning, not to mention the others. The fact is very simple: these ideas come not from a deep musicological/acoustic/performance scholarship as Yepes's original concept did, but out of a context of dearth, out of NOT having the facts, not knowing how to play the instrument, because unfortunately Yepes did not publish a method book. Left to their own devices, well-intentioned but ill-informed devotees of the 10-string guitar have turned the wheel into a square. This is not progress.

The 10-string guitar has INCREDIBLE potential (if we build on Yepes's sound foundations), but it needs to be rescued or it will amount to nothing but an amateurish gimmick, or as a musical crutch to prop up a feeble technique so as to be able to play "difficult" bass notes more easily on open strings, but often with harmonically or stylistically destructive consequences.

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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby viktor van niekerk » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:18 pm

HNLim wrote:I have a question! Can I play 10 strings guitar music on a 7 strings guitar?

I still find the 10 strings guitar intimidating!


No, you cannot play 10-string guitar music on the 7-string, but you can play 7-string and 6-string guitar music on 10-string guitar.

It is important to realize that Yepes invented his 10-string guitar first and foremost for the resonance, to have a more controllable and sustained sound, a more cantabile tone quality. There is no reason to feel obliged to play all the strings. They are there most importantly to resonate without being touched or plucked. You can play 6-string or 7-string guitar music on the 10-string guitar and just enjoy and benefit from the enriched resonance and new interpretative possibilities, without ever plucking or fretting any of strings 7-10.

Of course, we also can pluck the strings but that is at a higher skill level. We can also fret all them and we especially fret the 7th string a lot, but again that is still at a higher skill level.

However with the method book I have written and am now doing final fingering, layout and edits to, it will be easy to learn to use the bass strings gradually, if you also want to pluck them, fret them, re-tune them and use them in different ways than just as tuned resonators. Because I have selected level-appropriate pieces that gradually let you acquire more skills without being distracted by unnecessary difficulties that only hinder you from learning the new techniques. That is the basis of any great method, Etude or technical exercise.

So I hope you will not feel so intimidated because either way soon there will be a method to guide you step by step...or, if you prefer, you can just tune the 10-string in the standard way [low C, then a minor seventh up to Bb, then a step down to G# and another step down to F# for string 10] and just enjoy the glorious resonance and sustain of the instrument.

All the best,
Viktor
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Re: 10-Strings Guitar

Postby sgraham924 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:43 am

So then the new strings aren't tuned in fourths like the original 6 then. Is there any reason that you couldn't tune the strings lower so that the guitar has a lot more range in the bass?
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