Segovia criticism - secrets people don't want you to know

[soundknight21]

All your sources are from wikipedia how is that for impartial? Many people dislike his personality, his playing. Many love those things about him and the gap between tends to be very wide. I think we should let none of it bother us because it was a long time ago and their are better teachers and virtuoso now. We should just appreciate him for what he did for the guitar and let history write it self. He was the greatest at one stage and should be remembered as such. They dont take away sports stars international titles do they?

[Moderato]

The bottom line is Segovia paved the way for classical guitar as we know it today. He wanted classical guitar to be taught on the university level and to elevate the classical guitar as a professional instrument and he achieved that objective. Every other discussion on Segovia is opinion.

[Sean Eric Howard]

The bottom line is Segovia paved the way for classical guitar as we know it today. He wanted classical guitar to be taught on the university level and to elevate the classical guitar as a professional instrument and he achieved that objective. Every other discussion on Segovia is opinion.

I couldn't agree with this statement more. There are several contemporary guitarists who've been named in various threads as better players than Segovia. Every one of them have the Maestro and his tireless work to thank for it.

[elhombre]

No one doubts his contribution to the CG's evolution and his role in history. What is in question is whether he is above criticism or not and whether his technique and music were simply the greatest all time, never to be surpassed by anyone, forcing all that follow to gush that he was a demigod at a minimum... I do give him credit for championing CG into some degree of respectability in the conservative classical music world, but I also find faults with him and his music and reserve the right to criticize. Seems to me that many here can't handle that. The entire evolution is one giant on the shoulders of another The beef with AS and Chapdelain is that AS probably had the effect of steering MC away from classical guitar. Segovia wanted to excommunicate him for not blindly following Segovia's vision.

Fundamental question: can a guitarist legitimately take artistic license to provide ART and deviate from Segovia's narrow vision (despite Segovia's role in history)? I say 'yes, absolutely'. Many here seem to be saying 'no.' I really do value artistic diversity

I criticize Segovia's 'my way or the highway' approach and prize the contributions of many many guitarist that followed.

Interesting comments about the guitar vs. violin for the chaconne. Put me in the guitar camp--the first time I heard it was on the guitar. I find the violin abrasive sounding and don't prefer it, even when Rachel Podger plays it

[James Lister]

What is in question is whether he is above criticism...

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has asked that question, or suggested that the answer is yes, have they?

James

[tuk]

What is in question is whether he is above criticism or not

In my opinion no one or anything is above criticism, but when it comes to great artists the criticism needs to be coherent, comprehensive and verifiable ...some links to non-existent wiki pages or lots of unreferenced: he said, she said, they said ...aren't going to cut the mustard

and whether his technique and music were simply the greatest all time, never to be surpassed by anyone, forcing all that follow to gush that he was a demigod at a minimum...

I might have missed it, but I dont remember anyone making these claims in this thread, most people who have defended segovia, have been articulate and detailed( I don't include myself here), which is more than can be said for the original accusation ..he's only made 7 posts, 1 to say he was a beginner, 4 to say Segovia was over rated

[elhombre]

What is in question is whether he is above criticism...

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has asked that question, or suggested that the answer is yes, have they?

James

I believe they have. That is what the whole Chapdelaine thing is about (to me at least). How dare anyone take artistic license and alter Segovia's fingering. The infallibility of Segovia is strongly implied. Thank goodness we have guitarists that think and play outside of the Segovia box (Galbraith etc)

[aNovitiate]

That act of elevating him to the pedestal of untouchable genius god master of the guitar.

... was his self-deification.
... and, if/when anything (like reality) contradicted that, he stomped it.

When I read how Segovia treated Barrios (undoubtedly a superior composer and, likely, at LEAST Segovia's equal, if not BETTER, playing), I lost most of my respect for Segovia, especially as a person. I could overlook Segovia's self-deifying ego, but not keeping down another human for competitive reasons. I've read John Williams remarks, suggesting that, privately, he feels similarly; but, he could not say that in so many words, publicly ... for marketing reasons.

When I listen to Segovia's recordings, I don't think that he compares that well with today's superb technicians ... for all his supposed 5 hours/day, practicing.

[gitgeezer]

That act of elevating him to the pedestal of untouchable genius god master of the guitar.

... was his self-deification.
... and, if/when anything (like reality) contradicted that, he stomped it.

When I read how Segovia treated Barrios (undoubtedly a superior composer and, likely, at LEAST Segovia's equal, if not BETTER, playing), I lost most of my respect for Segovia, especially as a person. I could overlook Segovia's self-deifying ego, but not keeping down another human for competitive reasons. I've read John Williams remarks, suggesting that, privately, he feels similarly; but, he could not say that in so many words, publicly ... for marketing reasons.

When I listen to Segovia's recordings, I don't think that he compares that well with today's superb technicians ... for all his supposed 5 hours/day, practicing.

Did Segovia have something personal against Barrios, was he afraid of being overtaken by Barrios, or did he simply place Barrios among the many “guitar composers” who were “not very musical.” When speaking of the four goals of his career in a 1982 interview, Segovia said the following:

“The second goal was to create a repertoire which was not a repertoire by guitar composers--with the exception of Sor and Giulini. Tarrega was not a big composer, and the other [guitar] composers were not very musical. I began to ask the real composers--symphonic composers--to help in creating the repertoire for the guitar.”

He might have placed Barrios with Sor and Giulini, but did not. Segovia has been quoted as saying that Barrios “isn’t a good composer of the guitar.” Perhaps the folk quality of some of the Barrios compositions ran counter to Segovia’s first goal “to redeem the guitar from flamenco and other folkloric amusements.” Regarding the Barrios playing style, Segovia was apparently turned off by his use of steel strings.

The negative take on all of this is that Segovia was fearful that Barrios would rise above him and thus must be kept down. It’s also possible, however, that Segovia felt that the style and compositions of Barrios were just not what the classical guitar needed at that time to “reach the same dignified level as the piano, violin, and cello.” If Segovia held this view, the high esteem in which Barrios is held today shows that Segovia was wrong. We must be cautious, however, in judging past views by what we know today.

[Dillan_S]

There are several contemporary guitarists who've been named in various threads as better players than Segovia. Every one of them have the Maestro and his tireless work to thank for it.

That's the very type of statement that I'm wary of, as I state in the 1st post.
I looked at Zoran Dukic's performance of Piazzolla (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67278) and saw someone who does not owe anything to Segovia. The Piazzolla work is not Segovia-repertoire, Dukic never studied with Segovia (neither did his teacher as far as I know) and surpasses Segovia technically and musically. And even without Segovia, the classical guitar would have progressed. It seems like people suggest that classical guitar would not exist without him, which is a huge exaggeration. It anything, then it is rather all the copying of Segovia, which caused musical faults to be committed which, are more of a hindrence (than blessing), in getting the guitar accepted by non-guitarist standards. In the words of Reginald Smith Brindle
"The unexpected exaggeration of certain notes seemingly without musical reason, the delays and onward rushes, made the precise rhythmic designs difficult to guess at."
"While I was copying these discs, I gradually learned what to expect, absorbing Segovia's style, and knowing what to put on paper, even if he played things differently. Almost subconsciously, I became aware of several factors which were distinctly against musical tradition, and with other instruments would be regarded as blatantly erroneous."
"Segovia's strongly personal style makes him outstanding, with a stature head and shoulders higher than if he were merely 'correct'. Unfortunately it would seem that some of his eccentricities have been taken up by his admirers. They have become almost standard guitar practice, and some grotesque musical errors are being committed every day, without even being noticed, except possibly by non-guitarists." (source: viewtopic.php?t=62343)

In the words of John Williams: "The Segovia gestures—extra vibrato and dwelling [=fermata] on a note or chord at a cadence—is not musical freedom. There has been a tendency among guitar players to think that doing these things for their own sake quite apart from the context of a piece of music as a whole, is in some way expressive. I view them as simply mannerisms[...]" (source: see wiki-link from 1st post)

Again John Williams on Segovia:
You know for instance you've got in Asturias...
[plays phrase]
...and it goes on. You go...
[plays phrase]
...oh sorry...
[plays phrase]
...etcetera. Now it has to be in time. All those chords have to be in time.
[plays phrase]
To be limited by the change, the technical difficulties, right and left hand, you could end up by playing...
[plays phrase]
In other words you play the chord and then you wait while you get the rest of the notes. And these things have become often quite ingrained in guitar playing. Not everyone does it, but you know that Segovia influence, I'd have to say, was strong in that regard. (source: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... an/2939302 )

Dukic plays so far beyond Segovia, that I'm glad to witness this performer, who does not need Segovia's "thumb of approval" and treads his own way successfully.

No one doubts his contribution to the CG's evolution and his role in history. What is in question is whether he is above criticism or not and whether his technique and music were simply the greatest all time, never to be surpassed by anyone, forcing all that follow to gush that he was a demigod at a minimum... I do give him credit for championing CG into some degree of respectability in the conservative classical music world, but I also find faults with him and his music and reserve the right to criticize. Seems to me that many here can't handle that.

Well said.

[Denian Arcoleo]

We must be cautious, however, in judging past views by what we know today.

I agree. Also, by the same token, many of the things we 'know' today will be viewed as wrong by people in the future.

[tuk]

even without Segovia, the classical guitar would have progressed.

Abracadabra!, turning unfounded speculation into statement of fact ..your imagining a reality that simply does not exist ..the guitar may have progressed, but to where who can say

It seems like people suggest that classical guitar would not exist without him, which is a huge exaggeration.

does it just seem like or did someone actually suggest it? ..if it's the latter can we have a quote? ...or is it possible your the one who's exaggerating?

[lucy]

A few examples from other great early 20th century musicians:-

Casals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIn_GMD6ZGM

Madam Patti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDgJ0iKIvfE

Joachim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-p8YeIQkxs

Rachmaninoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt_gcYP6QEk

How do their styles compare with Segovia?

EDIT: Previous Rachmaninoff and Casals examples replaced with better ones.

[Catire]

I believe that what Segovia is faulted for was his greatest asset: a total conviction that what he was doing was right.
When he was on stage he played with absolute authority. No one since has come even close to that. Like it or not, it was like a force of nature. Such a man is bound to flawed. The point is, who cares?

[Sean Eric Howard]

No one doubts his contribution to the CG's evolution and his role in history. What is in question is whether he is above criticism or not

One look around Delcamp tells you he is not above criticism, although I doubt the Maestro would care about such nowadays . . .

and whether his technique and music were simply the greatest all time

I was unaware that anyone here at Delcamp had ever claimed ol' Pickle Fingers had the greatest technique of all time. Although he did father a child at an advanced age . . .

never to be surpassed by anyone

I believe there are many players who have surpassed Segovia on the technique plane; I also believe Segovia's work directly led to that surpassing, but that's my opinion. The level of teaching, pedagogy, and environment that the guitar enjoys today is quite a different world than the meager setting Segovia came up in.

forcing all that follow to gush that he was a demigod at a minimum...

Oh boy, I knew somebody was going to pull the Mommy Dearest thing.

I do give him credit for championing CG into some degree of respectability in the conservative classical music world, but I also find faults with him and his music and reserve the right to criticize. Seems to me that many here can't handle that.

You're entitled to opinion as much as the next person. I don't think anyone has denied that.

The entire evolution is one giant on the shoulders of another The beef with AS and Chapdelain is that AS probably had the effect of steering MC away from classical guitar. Segovia wanted to excommunicate him for not blindly following Segovia's vision.

Can't argue with you there. Segovia, ironically, wandered away from his own fingerings from time to time - there's a thread or two poking around about such.

If you want to see a real Segovia masterclass . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCUTx0CJqs