Segovia Criticism: a "what-if?" game

[David_Norton]

As a tangent to the most recent Segovia criticism threads these past few weeks, I propose looking from a different approach.

Here's a fun little "what-if" exercise. For this to work, you need a solid fundamental awareness of "who other than Segovia?" was active in the CG world from 1918 (end of WWI) to 1936 (Spanish Civil War) or even 1939 (WWII).

"WHAT IF"... Segovia hadn't been around? He took up the violin, or became a chef, or got stabbed by a jealous husband, or fell off a ladder, or whatever. If you like, he can even have a CG career, on up until 1919, because he was still quite obscure until then. But as of Janaury 1, 1919: he's out of the game.

EVERYONE ELSE involved in the CG world 1919-1936 still exists. Barrios, Llobet, Presti, Oyanguren, Foden, Sainz de la Maza, Arguello, Fleury, Borges, everyone. All lived within their historically defined lifespans. The flamenco people like Ramon Montoya or Nino Ricardo had their own careers, with their own resultant lines-of-influence. And composers such as Ponce and Tansman and and Tedesco, Turina, Torroba and Rodrigo were quite alive, too, but they never met Segovia, because he doesn't exist. Villa-Lobos and Barrios woudl still do their own music in South America. HVL's 12 Etudes may or may not come about, without Segovia's existence. Hard to say. The Aranjuez probably still would be composed, it's written for Sainz de la Maza. And all the pre-1919 people -- Tarrega, Sor, Mertz, and so on -- lived their lives, too. No change to that historical angle.

But without Segovia, what does the CG world look like 75-80 years later, in A.D. 2012? Bream and Williams never were influenced by Segovia, nor was anyone else.

As I said, this mental exercise requires good knowledge of the other players of the era. Let's see how well we can envision a CG world without the legacy of Andres Segovia as its baseline.

[Kent]

The 24th edition of the "Ida Presti Technique" would soon be published. Most players would be using the other side of their nails when playing. Because of her tireless concert and teaching schedule with husband Alexandre Lagoya, the duet prominence on everybody's concert program has become essential.
But if everyone lived right now, it would be creepy.

[carlos]

Agree with D. Norton. Segovia as a principal part of the CG history is not just his playing which, by the way, in his prime, was unchallenged, but his legacy. With all his human virtues and defects, it's his overall contribution to elevate the CG and give it the status it has today.

[David_Norton]

But if everyone lived right now, it would be creepy.

I caught your meaning, and modified the time-sense of the opening post accordingly. I didn't mean to suggest the others ARE still alive in 2012, but rather that they lived their established lifetimes and locations, albeit without Segovia being in the picture at all.

[60moo]

"WHAT IF"... Segovia hadn't been around?

Great question!...if only because [tee-hee-hee] I was thinking about something similar this week ...not classical guitar, but the course of pop music if the Beatles had not existed. Their arrival at once spurred the imaginations of aspiring wannabes, at the same time bringing to an end the careers of those who were already budding, or established, success stories.

In the 60s and beyond, some singer or band would have risen to fill the vacuum, but it would almost certainly have been a different sound and style that ultimately prevailed and dominated - one that we'll never know for sure. By way of analogy, Segovia had his own sound and style, and one person may well have risen to prominence in his place. But we cannot guess even in hindsight as to how things would have unfolded. It's not simple case of addition and subtraction - more a hypothetical problem of unintended interactions and consequences.

[Allan]

If there had been no Segovia I don't think there would have been a Christopher Parkening and thus no one in the American hemisphere who could claim they'd made enough income from recordings and concerts with a classical guitar to retire at the age of 30.

If there had been no Segovia I myself may have been able to retire a lot earlier with all the money I would have saved on classical guitars (LOL) because without the Maestro I don't think I would have been impressed enough by anyone else to take up the instrument.

[David_Norton]

If there had been no Segovia I myself may have been able to retire a lot earlier with all the money I would have saved on classical guitars...

Agreed, my friend, agreed!!

[Prominent Critic]

What might have happened is that other virtuosos - who had basically been living under the shadow of Segovia – would have become more prominent in his absence. In addition to the aforementioned Ida Presti, two in particular come first to mind – Alirio Diaz and Rey de la Torre, both of whom were contemporaries of Segovia.

Diaz – despite being a great virtuoso in his own right – was somehow always linked at least partly to Segovia, because of being Segovia's assistant at Santiago de Compostela and elsewhere, which seemed to confer a kind of subservient status. If there had been no Segovia, I think that even without Segovia's imprimatur Diaz' stature would have been greater.

Rey de la Torre was perhaps the single guitarist most overshadowed by Segovia. He was a phenomenal virtuoso, erudite and articulate. In the fifties, if you went into a record store and looked under "Classical Guitar," you would mostly find only records by Segovia and Rey de la Torre. But nevertheless, in the mind of the general public there was only Segovia. Incidentally, it was Rey de la Torre who gave the US première of Concierto de Aranjuez, in the late fifties.

Both of these had music composed for them and music dedicated to them by famous composers, and probably would have had more yet in the absence of Segovia. And with the advent of new technology I think that the rise of classical guitar might have reached its current level even without Segovia.

Ramon

[David_Norton]

Rey de la Torre (1917 - 1994) was Llobet's "star student". He very likely would have become Top Gun in the absence of Segovia.

I would tend to think Julio Martinez Oyanguren would have been more prominent in a Segovia-less world also. JMO was making quite a good career for himself in New York in the late 1930s, and I believe was the first CG player to perform at the White House (for President Roosevelt).

[gitgeezer]

I recently saw a YouTube interview of Tatyana Ryzhkova. She said her first teacher gave her records by Segovia and told her, “this is how you should play.” If no Segovia, what records would her teacher have given her?

[riffmeister]

The time-space continuum would have been so disrupted without Segovia that I'm afraid we would still be living in the disco music era today.

We obviously owe the man a debt of gratitude.

[Toccata]

The time-space continuum would have been so disrupted without Segovia that I'm afraid we would still be living in the disco music era today.

Or, we might have some masterpieces from the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern), Stravinsky, Ravel, et al.

[Wayne S]

In some ways Segovia undermined some of the great players. Barrios was not liked by Segovia and there were probably others.

We must all remember that there were many other composer/guitarists that made the guitar the worlds most popular instrument. I started to play the CG when I was about 10 or 11 and had never heard of Segovia, my inspiration came from listening at first to Flamenco players then Bream, Williams, L. Almeida and some great South American players Etc Etc many of these players had no association with Segovia and came from other legacies.
So without Segovia my guess is that the CG would still be where it is today.
Lets face it, it is the music from different composers that we all like to play.

A better question would be "What if" there was no Arcas, Mertz, Tarrega, Barrios, Giuliani, Sor, Carrulli, Carcassi Etc Etc ?

Cheers Wayne S

[rotary joint]

the classical guitar world would be different but no one would notice the difference.

[Sean Eric Howard]

What might have happened is that other virtuosos - who had basically been living under the shadow of Segovia – would have become more prominent in his absence.

With what repertoire?