How predictable are luthier-built results?

[wechard]

Hi Everyone,

In about a year I'm probably going to be shopping for an upgrade to my Saez 4A, and I'm starting serious research at this point. The idea of commissioning from a local luthier is very attractive in a lot of ways, but on the other hand that's quite a bit like buying a guitar without playing it first. And usually when I'm buying an instrument I like to demo several specimens even of the exact same model, since I often strongly prefer one over another even in cases where they are the same on paper.

So, I know the details will vary between luthiers and also depending on the specific guitar but I'm still wondering, in general can anything be said about how predictable the results are going to be when you have a guitar built? For people here who've done it several times, have you found that you generally got what you were expecting? Or have there been cases where you found the resulting guitar to be not what you hoped, or not as appealing as other very similar guitars you had tried, even though it was what you asked for?

[Cary W]

After reading the comments on this board for some time, the results do vary a lot...
Many have been quite happy with an instrument they tried out in the shop (many makers have one or two ready at all times) and were spared the uncertainty.
How about spending a few hours at a dealer's shop and having a test run of various makers? The Twelfth Fret in Toronto, or the Grand Salon in Montreal might be places to try...

Cary

[James Lister]

It's a difficult decision to make - whether to commission a guitar, or buy one that you've actually played. No two guitars are identical, so you're never going to be absolutely certain of what you're going to get. Most of the guitars I make are commissions, and generally I prefer to work that way, with the opportunity to tailor the guitar to the customer (within reason). The great thing about going with a local luthier is that there's more chance of having the opportunity of playing a number of their guitars. This allows you to judge the overall character of the instruments, so that you know you're in the right ballpark. When you've found the right luthier, you can talk about your specific requirements, and judge how far the luthier can go to meeting them. Some of these are easy (neck dimensions, action, decoration etc.), whereas making subtle (and predictable) changes to the tone are more difficult of course.

One thing to remember about buying a guitar you have played, is that unless you have the opportunity to try the guitar for an extended period, you're still not going to know everything you want to know about the instrument. It takes most players some time to learn to get the best from a new guitar, so playing one for half an hour or so at a dealers isn't necessarily going to tell you everything you need to know, so there's still an element of risk.

James

[Cincy2]

It's a difficult decision to make - whether to commission a guitar, or buy one that you've actually played. No two guitars are identical, so you're never going to be absolutely certain of what you're going to get. Most of the guitars I make are commissions, and generally I prefer to work that way, with the opportunity to tailor the guitar to the customer (within reason). The great thing about going with a local luthier is that there's more chance of having the opportunity of playing a number of their guitars. This allows you to judge the overall character of the instruments, so that you know you're in the right ballpark. When you've found the right luthier, you can talk about your specific requirements, and judge how far the luthier can go to meeting them. Some of these are easy (neck dimensions, action, decoration etc.), whereas making subtle (and predictable) changes to the tone are more difficult of course.

One thing to remember about buying a guitar you have played, is that unless you have the opportunity to try the guitar for an extended period, you're still not going to know everything you want to know about the instrument. It takes most players some time to learn to get the best from a new guitar, so playing one for half an hour or so at a dealers isn't necessarily going to tell you everything you need to know, so there's still an element of risk.

James

Excellent response above. It is likely the best advice you will ever receive on this subject. I've owned 3 custom made instruments. I enjoyed the process of working with the luthier immensely. The instruments were all beautiful examples of the luthier's art but they didn't appeal to me enough to keep them. This was not the luthier's fault. Searching for the exact sound you want from an instrument is a difficult task. There are many variables involved. As Mr. Lister accurately states, a 48 hour trial isn't adequate. I never sold a guitar sooner than 6 months after I received it.

Cincy

[ben etow]

Hi Everyone,

In about a year I'm probably going to be shopping for an upgrade to my Saez 4A, and I'm starting serious research at this point. The idea of commissioning from a local luthier is very attractive in a lot of ways, but on the other hand that's quite a bit like buying a guitar without playing it first. And usually when I'm buying an instrument I like to demo several specimens even of the exact same model, since I often strongly prefer one over another even in cases where they are the same on paper.

So, I know the details will vary between luthiers and also depending on the specific guitar but I'm still wondering, in general can anything be said about how predictable the results are going to be when you have a guitar built? For people here who've done it several times, have you found that you generally got what you were expecting? Or have there been cases where you found the resulting guitar to be not what you hoped, or not as appealing as other very similar guitars you had tried, even though it was what you asked for?

In my opinion and experience, you can hardly predict how a guitar will sound from most builders or manufaturers. The best among them will reduce the variation risks, but they are very few.
Make sure you can refuse the proposed instrument (you'll probably have to accept a partial no-refund deal in the US - in France or Spain, there isn't a culture of deposit) and/or you can choose from at least three instruments.
If you aren't happy with your commissioned instrument, it isn't good for the luthier either, so he or she'll probably consider alternatives suitable for you.
I refused one instrument commissioned to two different, established builders. One was angry about it (but didn't respect the agreed options and offered a lower quality instruments than the one I already had) and the other immediately proposed I would come back later for another isntrument with slightly changed back (for more vibration and feedback which lacked the first I refused). Don't ask me why I'm still client of the second one (aside from the outstanding guitars he's building)...

[wechard]

Thanks everyone -- that more or less confirms what I was thinking. I guess the plan will be to first save up the money and get to a higher playing level, then check out local shops and luthiers that have a few things in stock to try, and then go the commission route if those first two options don't pan out.

[simonm]

... in general can anything be said about how predictable the results are going to be when you have a guitar built? ...

Yes.

You will definitely get a guitar shaped object.

If you are not comfortable with the idea then go for a used one that you can test, there are loads of nice guitars out there. There are frequently some great bargains here on the for sale board in the forum. The uncertainty is part of the fun for some people. Most builders offer a trial period - if you are not happy you give it back for a refund. The only real limitation here is if you commission something very unusual then you will have to wait a while to get your money back as one of the conditions will be that the builder can resell the guitar.


edit
p.s. "getting an upgrade" is a relatively vague reason for buying a new guitar and in particular for commissioning one. Mostly we buy guitars just because we want a new toy - for many people it has nothing to do with their existing guitar beyond the fact of boredom. You "need" to get an "upgrade" (or "sidegrade") when you can identify specific things about your guitar that are not longer good enough for your skill level and are holding back your further development. So your idea to develop your skills further is an excellent decision.

[ben etow]

Thanks everyone -- that more or less confirms what I was thinking. I guess the plan will be to first save up the money and get to a higher playing level, then check out local shops and luthiers that have a few things in stock to try, and then go the commission route if those first two options don't pan out.

Those two options limit your access to standard instruments: scale, width, body dimensions are rather standardized, at least in European shops or at European luthiers. If you need a 630 or slimmer/wider shapes, I guess you won't find it easily that way. Good luck.

[James Lister]

Thanks everyone -- that more or less confirms what I was thinking. I guess the plan will be to first save up the money and get to a higher playing level, then check out local shops and luthiers that have a few things in stock to try, and then go the commission route if those first two options don't pan out.

Those two options limit your access to standard instruments: scale, width, body dimensions are rather standardized, at least in European shops or at European luthiers. If you need a 630 or slimmer/wider shapes, I guess you won't find it easily that way. Good luck.

Hi Ben,

Your first sentence is a bit ambiguous, and at first I read it to mean that the OPs access to standard instruments would be limited, whereas what I presume you mean is that the OP would have access only to standard instruments. Just thought I'd try to clarify this in case there was any confusion.

James

[wechard]

Those two options limit your access to standard instruments: scale, width, body dimensions are rather standardized, at least in European shops or at European luthiers. If you need a 630 or slimmer/wider shapes, I guess you won't find it easily that way. Good luck.

Fortunately I'm attracted to pretty standard designs/dimensions. The main appeal of luthier-built is quality, supporting the local economy, and control over small details that I could learn to not worry about if I found the right already-existing instrument.

[Kenbobpdx]

I think James Lister's response is spot on. I would commission another instrument in a heart beat from a reputable, quality luthier. The process of working directly with a luthier can be very rewarding. I have very fond memories of spending time in the shop watching my guitar come together as well as seeing other guitars being built, some of which I got to play before they headed off to their new owners. I think classical guitarists have very intimate feelings for their instruments and to have actually seen it go from raw wood to finished guitar enhances that sense of intimacy.

If you are unsure about assuming the risk of commissioning there are other options to secure a luthier built instrument as pointed out. If you do purchase from a dealer instead of through a commission I would suggest reaching out to the luthier anyway (if possible) so you at least establish some connection. Most luthiers like to know where, and with whom, their instruments wind up. I know Jeff Elliott knows where almost all of his are even after they have been resold to someone other than the original commission. I would guess this is true for many of the luthiers on this forum, too, but they would be better able to answer that.

[elhombre]

The other thing worth mentioning in that most people's tastes and preferences change (evolve?) over time. That's another wild card which is not a bad thing. To me it means there are some excellent guitars on the secondary market. Even David Russell recommends on one his YT vids to change guitars every so often (not necesarily selling, but rather playing more than one instrument).

[George Crocket]

edit
p.s. "getting an upgrade" is a relatively vague reason for buying a new guitar and in particular for commissioning one. Mostly we buy guitars just because we want a new toy - for many people it has nothing to do with their existing guitar beyond the fact of boredom. You "need" to get an "upgrade" (or "sidegrade") when you can identify specific things about your guitar that are not longer good enough for your skill level and are holding back your further development. So your idea to develop your skills further is an excellent decision.

Are you actually saying that commissioning a second guitar from the same builder means the first one you got him to build was unsatisfactory? I would have thought repeat custom was a good advertisement for the builder.

[LBrandt]

Can I add a question to this thread without diverting too much from the poster's original question and without offending any luthier (which is certainly not my intention to do)? I've wondered about going the luthier route, but so far, I've only bought "off the shelf" guitars. My question is, are luthier guitars "always" considered "better" than factory built guitars (assuming the same price for each)? I mean, isnt' a luthier "forced" to charge a lot more for each unit, since I assume that in most cases, it represents the luthier's only source of income?

Again, I mean no offense to any luthier, since luthiers obviously have a great love and respect for the instrument that everyone on this forum loves.

[Vlad Kosulin]

This is interesting question.
If the luthier is not absolute novice, I would most likely prefer their guitar. Yes, it can be luthier's only source of income, but do not forget that factory made guitar is source of income for workers, headquarter employees, and is expected to bring profit to company shareholders. Not mentioning that luthier living in Mexico needs much less money for decent living than executives of, say, big Japanese corporation
Factory made guitars can be more consistent, but luthier made will have much more personal sound.