Short scale guitar shopping in 2012

[Evan]

I know the topic of short scale guitars has been discussed on this forum many times in the past, but most of the threads that I found seemed to have been abandoned at this point. Thought I'd start a new thread and seek current advice.

I recently discovered Rob MacKillop's site and videos on romantic guitar. I can't find any detailed information online about the model guitar that he has, but Rob has said that it's a 600mm scale Manuel Rodriguez Senorita guitar. Not finding that anywhere online, I began looking for other guitars that are currently being made.

For reference, I've been playing a 650mm/52mm Antonio Aparicio AA15 for the last ~2 years. I've often thought I would like to play a smaller scale guitar and watching Rob's videos has re-sparked that interest.

I've read just about all the past threads here on short scale guitars and done some research into different makers.

Given that I haven't actually played a 600mm guitar, it's difficult to know how much I want to put into one. My biggest reservation is with the nut width. I'm just not sure what width I would prefer. A 615mm scale guitar seems perfect though.

* Cordoba Cadete 3/4 is 615mm/48mm for about $259.00
* Ken Hill New World Guitars Estudio models come in 615mm/48mm for $849

Cordoba also has a few other even smaller models but not having held one, I really can't know what to expect in the quality, fit, finish, playability, and tone.

On one hand, I don't want to invest in a guitar that's lower than my AA15 in quality. I had been looking forward to a slight upgrade... but I can't go play smaller scale guitars locally - the shops don't stock them. I certainly don't want to purchase a dinky instrument that was made for a child. But I also don't want to break the bank until I can discover the best scale/nut ratio that suits me.

As an aside, I love the look and sound of the Panormo guitars, but at this point I haven't found any that I could afford. If there are reproduction Panormo style guitars that go for <1000, please let me know.

Budget: probably south of $1000.
Thanks.

[sxedio]

There is also the Ramirez romantic that is possibly quite expensive, 620mm string length. And the cheap La patrie motif that has small body size but is full scale.

[hesson11]

HI Evan,

I'm a big fan of shorter scales, too, mainly because of hand injuries. My main guitar is a 640/51 Hill Master Series Rodriguez, which I really love. But I've also got an itch to go a bit shorter. Just on a whim a couple of weeks ago, I bought a Cordoba Cadete at the local Guitar Center after having a blast playing it in the store. And I've got to tell you, I'm STILL having a blast with it. It is SO easy to play.

No, it isn't a concert-quality instrument, but it's far, far better than any $260 guitar has a right to be. I find it a bit addictive! To be able to play without pain or difficulty is a somewhat rare and exciting experience for me, and I'm loving it. My playing is much cleaner, too. Its voice is clear, sweet and remarkably loud for the size. Cradling it in your body is just so cozy and comfortable, too. I've been so taken with it that I'm thinking of adding a Dolce, the 630mm Cordoba. But I'm half afraid it won't be as good (or as much fun) as the Cadete. I confess that I do have just a bit of trouble with the 48mm nut width of the Cadete, but nothing I can't handle. It looks like there just MIGHT be enough space to spread the strings out just a tad with a new nut.

As an Aparicio player, are you familiar with the AA-60? It's a 630mm scale, I believe, with a 48mm nut. I've seen it at the Trilogy Guitars and Luthier Music websites for around $550.

I had one of the early 630mm Hill Player models several years ago. It was nice, but I don't remember being as taken with it as I am with the Cadette, as surprising as that may sound ($260 vs. something like $1,200 for the Hill at the time)! But I think it would be worth giving a more recent Player or Estudio a try. Kenny Hill has been involved with the newest Cordoba designs, and I've seen reports that Cordoba and the Player/Estudio series are built in the same Chinese shop, so there may be some strong similarities.

The Alhambra Senoritas are supposed to be good too, but I think the shortest scale length is 636 (anybody know if that's right?).

In any event, it's good we have another short-scale thread going; perhaps we'll all learn about some new developments.

-Bob

[Evan]

Hi Bob,

I'm a big fan of shorter scales, too, mainly because of hand injuries. My main guitar is a 640/51 Hill Master Series Rodriguez, which I really love. But I've also got an itch to go a bit shorter.

I guess if I could go play an array of guitars at all scales I wouldn't rule out a 640 - but the difference seems so slight that I imagine that it's hardly worth the investment. I'm pretty sure that I don't want to bother with 630 even.

Just on a whim a couple of weeks ago, I bought a Cordoba Cadete at the local Guitar Center after having a blast playing it in the store. And I've got to tell you, I'm STILL having a blast with it. It is SO easy to play.

That's great news. The price seems too good to be true, so naturally I worried a bit.

Maybe you can help dispel some uncertainty about the Cadete. Cordoba's site lists two versions of the cadete - one being the C3M Cadete (which is a satin matt finish). The specs on each version of the Cadete list different scales and nut widths. The specs for the C3M Cadete lists 590mm/47mm while the generically named Cadete with gloss finish lists 615mm/48mm. Which did you get?

No, it isn't a concert-quality instrument, but it's far, far better than any $260 guitar has a right to be. I find it a bit addictive! To be able to play without pain or difficulty is a somewhat rare and exciting experience for me, and I'm loving it. My playing is much cleaner, too. Its voice is clear, sweet and remarkably loud for the size. Cradling it in your body is just so cozy and comfortable, too.

Do you think that you are bonding with the Cadete more because it's just a better fit for you, or do you think it's got to do with fit and quality?

I always struggle with finding a good comfortable place to play. Sitting in hard dining room chairs is out. I usually end up sitting on a pillow on the floor, but that kills my back after 10 minutes. I would love to be able to play in my recliner - but my AA15 is too big for that.

Side note:
I purchased a Baby Taylor acoustic back in 2001 - thinking it would be great. I quickly stopped playing it. I picked it up again recently just to get a feel for the size. Big stretch chords are definitely easier - despite it being steel string and the strings being 11 years old. It sounds horrible and I really have zero interest in steel string acoustics... but it's a good gauge of proportion. The neck is really too tight for me.

Let's see what Taylor says about the Baby Taylor specs...
* Scale: 22-3/4 (577mm)
* Nut: 1 11/16 (42mm)

I actually like that. All that I felt wasn't quite right about the feel of the Baby Taylor seems to be looking better with the Cadete. The Cadete has a slightly bigger body, wider neck. Hmmm, I think 577mm with a wider neck might be alright too. The Cordoba Requinto 1/2 models are 580mm/47mm. Did you happen to pick one of those up?

But, again, I have it in my head that as the body size decreases, so will the quality.

Would you say that the quality, fit, finish, tone of the Cadete is on par with their full size models? I haven't played any Cordobas since I purchased by AA15. A local shop does stock Cordobas - but they only carry the full size models and they don't have much in stock at present.

I've been so taken with it that I'm thinking of adding a Dolce, the 630mm Cordoba. But I'm half afraid it won't be as good (or as much fun) as the Cadete.

How do you mean "afraid that it won't be as good" (quality of the instrument, or fit for you)?

As an Aparicio player, are you familiar with the AA-60? It's a 630mm scale, I believe, with a 48mm nut. I've seen it at the Trilogy Guitars and Luthier Music websites for around $550.

I've only played mine. I bought the last one the shop had and they stopped selling them at that time.

I had one of the early 630mm Hill Player models several years ago. It was nice, but I don't remember being as taken with it as I am with the Cadette, as surprising as that may sound ($260 vs. something like $1,200 for the Hill at the time)!

Wow. That's pretty amazing.

Thanks for posting!

[hesson11]

Hi Evan,

To answer some of your questions: I have the 615/48 Cadete, not the C3M.

I think I'm bonding with the Cadete both because it's a good fit for me AND because of its quality. Even though I'm over 6 feet tall, I still find many average- to larger-sized guitars a bit uncomfortable, so this little one really feels good. (I play in the traditional classical posture.) I don't want to portray the Cadete as a luthier-quality, handmade instrument, but its quality is quite high. While I have detected no flaws, I'm certainly not claiming it's the equivalent of a $5,000 instrument. I've even found the finish to be remarkably light, even and refined. I seem to recall the Hill Player that I had several years ago had a noticeably heavier finish. I've played several full-sized Cordoba models in the Iberia series, and I believe the fit, finish and overall quality of the Cadete is on a par with them.

I've never played a requinto.

In saying I was afraid the Dolce might not be as good as the Cadete, I meant only that the Cadete exceeded my expectations so much that I kind of wonder whether Cordoba could achieve the same success with another guitar. Though I know of no reason why they couldn't.

-Bob

[Chimensch]

I always struggle with finding a good comfortable place to play. Sitting in hard dining room chairs is out. I usually end up sitting on a pillow on the floor, but that kills my back after 10 minutes. I would love to be able to play in my recliner - but my AA15 is too big for that.

Excuse me, but you've got a huge problem here and I really think you ought to be looking for a proper chair first. My solution was an adjustable drummer's throne. You can adjust it to the right height so that you have good posture and the seat is padded.

I also have followed the other short-scale threads. I have very small hands compared to the measurements that have been quoted here on the forum and also did a lot of research into short-scale guitars. I finally abandoned the idea for two reasons: 1) I was troubled by the idea that I would eventually be limiting my self to only playing short scale guitars and 2) when I talked to my guitar teacher about the idea he pointed out that his hands are much smaller than mine. He agreed that small hands are a problem with some instruments, like the piano, but that it was absolutely not the case with the guitar. It comes down to a question of good technique and posture, which brings me back to what I quoted from your post. I think that getting a smaller guitar and playing in your recliner is going to cause you more problems in the long run. By the way, it's OK if you want to tell me to mind my own business and go to h***.

[Beth F-R]

2) when I talked to my guitar teacher about the idea he pointed out that his hands are much smaller than mine. He agreed that small hands are a problem with some instruments, like the piano, but that it was absolutely not the case with the guitar. It comes down to a question of good technique and posture, which brings me back to what I quoted from your post. I think that getting a smaller guitar and playing in your recliner is going to cause you more problems in the long run. By the way, it's OK if you want to tell me to mind my own business and go to h***.

We are all way too civilized here for that, but I respectfully disagree, nonetheless. There are limitations based on anatomy that will not be overcome by stretching, such as having very short or deformed fingers. In these cases, a more comfortable instrument, proportioned correctly, will make a difference in one's playing and also enjoyment. I 100% agree that Evan should get a proper chair setup, but I don't see anything wrong with searching for a romantic-size instrument, especially if he likes the sound.

BTW, there was a Panormo copy that sold on this list some months ago, I think for around $850. You could keep your eyes open for that kind of thing.

On the nut width question -- string separation is also something to notice. I find that a nut under 50 mm typically has the strings too close together for me to finger accurately, despite my tiny hands. I like the separation to be around 41.5 cm, which is closer than standard, but not as close as on my son's 3/4 size guitar, which has a 47 mm nut.

Happy Hunting,
Beth F-R

[Evan]

I always struggle with finding a good comfortable place to play. Sitting in hard dining room chairs is out. I usually end up sitting on a pillow on the floor, but that kills my back after 10 minutes. I would love to be able to play in my recliner - but my AA15 is too big for that.

Excuse me, but you've got a huge problem here and I really think you ought to be looking for a proper chair first. My solution was an adjustable drummer's throne. You can adjust it to the right height so that you have good posture and the seat is padded.

I do have a small stool that I bought from a local guitar shop when I started playing. I've used it off and on. Somedays it kills my back to sit for too long, which discourages future interest. When I started playing, I bought a foot stool and tried using that. That definitely was a terror for my back. I stopped.

Now days, I occasionally use one of those little curved (dynarette) pillows when I feel a need. That's not always perfect, but it's always better than the foot stool.

[Evan]

I finally abandoned the idea for two reasons: 1) I was troubled by the idea that I would eventually be limiting my self to only playing short scale guitars and 2) when I talked to my guitar teacher about the idea he pointed out that his hands are much smaller than mine. He agreed that small hands are a problem with some instruments, like the piano, but that it was absolutely not the case with the guitar. It comes down to a question of good technique and posture, which brings me back to what I quoted from your post.

Since I'm not a professional and I'm not in school for music I'm really just looking to be more comfortable. Maybe in 20 years I'll start not sucking and want to play in public. I have no doubt that my former teacher and the guitar shop owner near me would agree with you. I haven't asked their opinions, but I'm sure they would scoff at me even considering a smaller guitar. You could be correct though - maybe I'll become so used to the shorter scale that I won't have any interest in going back to 650.

What's the hand measurement for determining scale? I think mine is 8.5" tip of thumb to tip of pinky. Still, it's not just about hand stretching for me.

[Evan]

There are limitations based on anatomy that will not be overcome by stretching, such as having very short or deformed fingers. In these cases, a more comfortable instrument, proportioned correctly, will make a difference in one's playing and also enjoyment. I 100% agree that Evan should get a proper chair setup, but I don't see anything wrong with searching for a romantic-size instrument, especially if he likes the sound.

I'm 6" with normal sized hands, but getting older and less flexible. I've had back pain and been out of work because of playing guitar. And, you're right, there is much to love about the romantic instruments. I know virtually nothing about them - and only recently got turned on to them because of Rob MacKillop's playing, but I had considered smaller guitars for a while.

BTW, there was a Panormo copy that sold on this list some months ago, I think for around $850. You could keep your eyes open for that kind of thing.

Gah! I'll have to start watching that. I'm new to the forum.

[AlanB]

What's the hand measurement for determining scale? I think mine is 8.5" tip of thumb to tip of pinky. Still, it's not just about hand stretching for me.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I don't think there is any formula for determining such things. Small hands may make it harder to play some things but for others it will make no difference. Out of curiosity I just measured my own span and it is the same as yours. My guitar has a 650mm scale and 52mm nut and whilst there are some pieces I've learnt in the past where some of the fingering was a bit a of challenge to reach to begin with I've never thought of hand size being a real limiting factor for my playing ... but then again, being able to reach is not necessarily a reason to use a 650mm scale guitar.

[Supperconductor]

What's the hand measurement for determining scale? I think mine is 8.5" tip of thumb to tip of pinky. Still, it's not just about hand stretching for me.

My hand measures the same. Though I don't find playing 650mm scale particularly difficult, I do find the 52mm standard nut width to be too crowded for my thick fingers. I just ordered a custom luthier guitar from Darren Hippner. My first requirement was a 55mm nut width, but I also opted for a 640mm scale length. That's not much of a difference from 650mm but I thought I'd give it a try anyway.

[Chimensch]

What's the hand measurement for determining scale? I think mine is 8.5" tip of thumb to tip of pinky. Still, it's not just about hand stretching for me.

That's about what mine is too. But the interesting thing is that I just learned a piece for my end-of-year recital that had some very awkward reaches in it. By the end of learning and memorizing it, they were no longer awkward. I'm 63 and just started studying guitar in October, so the argument that being older makes you less flexible doesn't seem to be valid, at least for me.

[Beth F-R]

What's the hand measurement for determining scale? I think mine is 8.5" tip of thumb to tip of pinky. Still, it's not just about hand stretching for me.

If you search in the "ergonomics" subforum, you will find several threads on this topic, including many peoples' measurments of both span and individual finger lengths. There is really quite a range of sizes out there. As far as I'm aware, I have the second-smallest pair of hands in this group, among people who have posted. Some folks' fingers are almost twice as long as mine, which is why I'm a little impatient w/the "one size fits all -- just suck it up and stretch" attitude. Yes, you can improve reach (I have improved mine), but you can't grow longer fingers, arms, or torsos. Also -- women have additional "attributes" that get in the way of holding the guitar the same way that men do -- this also impacts the size and type of body that is comfortable for the player to hold, but I haven't actually ever seeen this mentioned in a thread.

Evan, play what you like to hear and what feels comfortable to you. Also, make yourself get up from the chair and walk around and stretch every 10-15 minutes while you're practicing. This will help w/muscle tension.

Good luck,
Beth

[Evan]

To answer some of your questions: I have the 615/48 Cadete, not the C3M.

I still don't really get why the 615 isn't offered in Matt finish. Well, nevertheless...

What strings are you playing with?

I'm curious about how string tension works and changes play on a short scale. As I understand it, when tuning to standard EADGBE, the strings would be under a little less tension. Is that tension increasingly more noticible as the scale decreases? ...rather, is it noticible between the different scales (650, 640, 630 etc)?

And does that affect the tone by ....darkening it? Is that a good way to describe the tone change?

Has anyone tried the NylGut strings on a shorter scale? -- [edit] nix that. I recall Rob saying he did on his 600mm guitar - but he also says he tuned down a bit. So, has anyone tried NylGut strings on a shorter scale and tuned to standard EADGBE? I'm still learning notes on the fretboard and really don't want to introduce undue confusion into the mix until I'm comfortable with all note names. (I am progressing towards that goal though)