Short scale guitar shopping in 2012

[rotary joint]

Rob MacKillop is a very good player with a wealth of knowledge. Why not email him for a bit of advise?

[Michael.N.]

To answer some of your questions: I have the 615/48 Cadete, not the C3M.

I still don't really get why the 615 isn't offered in Matt finish. Well, nevertheless...

What strings are you playing with?

I'm curious about how string tension works and changes play on a short scale. As I understand it, when tuning to standard EADGBE, the strings would be under a little less tension. Is that tension increasingly more noticible as the scale decreases? ...rather, is it noticible between the different scales (650, 640, 630 etc)?

And does that affect the tone by ....darkening it? Is that a good way to describe the tone change?

Has anyone tried the NylGut strings on a shorter scale? -- [edit] nix that. I recall Rob saying he did on his 600mm guitar - but he also says he tuned down a bit. So, has anyone tried NylGut strings on a shorter scale and tuned to standard EADGBE? I'm still learning notes on the fretboard and really don't want to introduce undue confusion into the mix until I'm comfortable with all note names. (I am progressing towards that goal though)

OK Evan, here's how it works. This issue seems to confuse a great many Players, largely those coming from the modern Classical Guitar.
Given that the string type (therefore gauge) and pitch remains unchanged, decreasing the string length will result in less tension i.e. the string will have more 'give' under the fingers. To restore back to a higher tension, you have to increase the thickness or diameter of each string.
Modern Classical Guitars are at around 7 Kg tension for each string. Lutes are much lower at around 4 Kg tension. That difference is huge.
Rob plays without the use of right hand Nails. Such players tend to favour slightly lower tension on the strings, largely because of the no nail technique. There's a little more 'give' in the strings, something for the finger pad to grip. For a Romantic Guitar, no nail players might Play at 6 Kg for the high 'E' string as opposed to 7.5 Kg on a modern Guitar, still far higher than Lute tension.
Let's take our Yamaha Guitalele as it comes out of the Box. It's normally tuned in 'A', as such it has strings to match this. It is possible to tune it down to 'E' but that would result in less volume, buzzing and a very dull sound. To restore it back to near original intended tension would require the use of much thicker strings. That's perfectly possible because strings are made in a multitude of diameters. The only real contention is the sound. It will sound OK but because of the sound box size it's simply much better suited to being tuned at a higher pitch. Try thinking of getting a double bass sound from a Guitalele - not really going to function very well. In short, there's always a trade off.
As for Nylgut. They are the synthetic version of real Gut. They are played by Ukulele, Lute,Romantic and even modern Guitar players. That covers a lot of instruments at differing tensions. I've tried directly comparing Nylgut with real Gut strings. They are pretty close in sound to real Gut IMO. Perhaps real Gut has a slightly more complex tone but it's not that easy to hear the difference. I had these strings side by side on the same Guitar, both at the exact same pitch.

[Evan]

OK Evan, here's how it works. This issue seems to confuse a great many Players, largely those coming from the modern Classical Guitar.
Given that the string type (therefore gauge) and pitch remains unchanged, decreasing the string length will result in less tension i.e. the string will have more 'give' under the fingers. To restore back to a higher tension, you have to increase the thickness or diameter of each string.

Thanks for writing Michael,

Based on that: let's say that I want the lower tension feel, but I want to be able to tune to standard EADGBE. Not on a uke-type instrument; on a guitar like the Cordoba Cadete.

Maybe I'll hate the lower tension and want to return to a normal feel on the shorter guitar... I don't know. I'm only asking now because I'm really not sure how much freedom I'll have and if I'll be bound by certain constraints that I don't yet understand.

Aquila's site states that the NylGut strings are only for instruments less than 63cm - so I'm assuming that they will work on the 615cm Cordoba Cadete that we've discussed on this thread already. However, there are many Aquila NylGut string packs listed on Strings By Mail. So many... Could you point out several different packs/tensions that you've tried on guitar, maybe that will help narrow the field for investigation.

Would I have the freedom to switch between different tensions of the NylGut strings - (or maybe switch back to some Savarez Red Card high tension strings if I get bored) without doing damage to the guitar? Would I likely have to adjust the truss when changing?

As for fingernails, I've been playing with nails for the last year at least and just this week I cut them. I cut them in a rush in the morning before work. I came home for lunch and played for a few minutes and was really surprised. I thought "that sounds much better than last night. what am I doing differently?" Back at work later, I realize that I had cut my nails!

[Evan]

Rob MacKillop is a very good player with a wealth of knowledge. Why not email him for a bit of advise?

I did submit a few comments on his blog and he replied and was very nice. I didn't hear back from him after my last question though. I think I was overloading him with questions.

[Evan]

If you search in the "ergonomics" subforum, you will find several threads on this topic,
Beth

I hadn't uncovered those parts of the forum. I spent several hours reading last night. There is so much terrific, helpful information there.
Thanks for pointing that out, Beth.

[Evan]

Going back a bit on this thread, I'm still debating different short scale guitars. I have asked my local shop for details about the differences between the two Cordoba Cadete models. They couldn't tell me more than what I see on Cordoba's site so I wrote to Cordoba and asked. I'm still waiting on a response from them.

Meanwhile, I came across Fernandez Guitars - who has a Children's line called Esteve. These guitars sell for around $600 - but they have a 580mm/48mm model.

Alhambra also offers a 580mm scale version of several of their models.
The 3C ($699) and 4P ($825) models are interesting. Does anyone here happen to have one of these?

It's really alarming how little details these guitar makers offer about their finely crafted instruments. For example, I haven't come across a single site yet that details the thickness or shape of the neck. I think that would make a profound impact on the comfort and playability of any guitar - yet that information doesn't apparently exist.

Bob, if you're still listening, I would really be interested to know the neck thickness on the Cadete.

[Evan]

The Alhambra Senoritas are supposed to be good too, but I think the shortest scale length is 636 (anybody know if that's right?).

-Bob

I missed that the first 3 times I read your reply. I just wrote about finding the Alhambra Cadetes, which are 580mm. They offer that scale in several models, which is a rarity.

How does Alhambra like a 3c or 4p rank next to an entry level Antonio Aparicio? The Alhambra is more costly and still has laminated back and sides in those two models.

[Michael.N.]

I don't understand why Aquila state that Nylgut can't be used on string lengths above 63 cm's. It's used all the time on Lutes, Theorbos and Baroque Guitars - way above 63 cm's!
Anyway, here's what you need:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/

Arto's string calculator. Select the required pitch (eg. 440 Hz or 415 hz). Place in the note name (make sure it's in the correct octave! - that's very important!). Dial in your string length and the string material eg. 580mm's with Gut (Nylgut is the same as Gut). Now you need to decide on what your required playing tension is. That can only really come through your own experience and obviously the limits of the actual instrument construction. For Modern classical the high 'E' might be 7.5 Kg, Romantic Guitar 6 or 6.5 Kg. The calculator will give you the required diameter of each string. I tend to buy my strings individually rather than as 'sets'. Probably works out a little more expensive but I can get my exact requirements.
For a guide on string tensions of Romantic guitars see the section under 'Strings' :

http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/strings.htm

That's just a guide but is probably very close to what most no nail players are using.
BTW Rob also plays a Rodriguez 'senorita' C3 model with Aquila Silk and Gut strings. I think it's 600 mm string length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW1AXsz1 ... ure=relmfu

Great tone!

[Evan]

Anyway, here's what you need:

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/

For a guide on string tensions of Romantic guitars see the section under 'Strings' :

http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/strings.htm

Thanks for those links. The string guide is fantastic. I never gave much of a thought about strings before. There's so much to learn.

BTW Rob also plays a Rodriguez 'senorita' C3 model with Aquila Silk and Gut strings. I think it's 600 mm string length.

Maybe they're more common in the UK. Every hint of that guitar that I can find is on a UK site, but I haven't found anything specific about it and none new or used for sale anywhere.

[Scot Tremblay]

I don't understand why Aquila state that Nylgut can't be used on string lengths above 63 cm's. It's used all the time on Lutes, Theorbos and Baroque Guitars - way above 63 cm's!

I don't think that it's that the entire range of Nylgut cannot be used on instruments 63 cm and over but it's refering mainly to the finer higher strings. My renaissance lute is 64 cm string length and I cannot use the older Nylgut on the first course/chanterelle (1st string). It just breaks as it gets close to pitch. The New Nylgut works better but I've found it's 50/50 if it will break or not and doesn't last long anyways. It has to do with the diameter of the filament, the pitch it has to be at and in some instances those two don't work well together.

The Nylgut for romantic guitars doesn't work well above 63 cm in my experience (the first string breaks easily) and the gauges used in the modern classical set are too sloppy under 64 cm IMO.

Now this is just my experience. Others have not noted as many issues I've had so I don't know if it's something I'm doing, not doing or I'm just unlucky. When I wrote them about it they were kind enough to write back and say basically the same as above...Certain string sizes cannot be used over the 63 cm magic point and they were working on it.

[Michael.N.]

I think I have it wrong. It seems that it is the Rodriguez C1 senorita model, 600 mm string length.
The Rodriguez range is all very confusing as they have the same or very similar model numbers but different specs.
Try contacting Manuel Rodriguez and sons for a US supplier.

[Evan]

I've been emailing Alhambra about their cadete (580mm) models. I learned that they ship all models and sizes with D'Addario EXP Extra hard tension strings. I asked if I would be able to switch to low tension NylGut strings and they confirmed that I would be able to do this without any trouble and that I could tune to standard pitch. The only thing I may need to watch for would be possible string-buzz - which they say could require that I play more lightly.

Alhambra guitars don't have a truss rod. My guess is that switching to lower tension strings Could cause the neck to bow backwards- thus causing the buzz. Alhambra says I won't have any trouble and the neck won't move.

Does that seem likely? Would I be able to get a low tension feel on their short scale models without harming the guitar or changing the action?

And if the action does change, would I be able to correct that by adjusting the bridge height?

[ritchie]

Hi

I have Cashimira 16, which has a 63cm scale. It only cost me £120 used, but it is very well made and is excellent value new. I also have a luthier made 65mm which is much better, but I still like to play the Cashimira and while it has a quieter softer sound it is easy to play. Recommended.

http://www.miacorde.com/guitarras-espan ... binga.html

[Evan]

I have Cashimira 16, which has a 63cm scale. It only cost me £120 used, but it is very well made and is excellent value new. I also have a luthier made 65mm which is much better, but I still like to play the Cashimira and while it has a quieter softer sound it is easy to play.

Thanks,

It's interesting how some guitars/models are only available in the UK market. I never found Rob MacKillop's guitar for sale with an American dealer.
The Joan Cashimira site is really nice though and their guitars look promising. I'll definitely add it to my list of possibilities and keep looking for a dealer in the states.

Please tell me how you tune yours. I'm really curious about Requinto tuning and intonation with different string tensions. I posted another thread about that, but haven't gotten any responses yet.

[ritchie]

Hi Evan

I have used it in standard tuning with high tension strings, but currently I am using an open D tuning, normal strings, and generally using a Capo at the second fret. It seems to like this arrangement and sounds good, I adopted it based on Rob macKillops book on Scottish music where he recommends it for playing Scottish Lute music on the guitar.

By the way the Rodrequez C3 senorita 600mm is still available in the UK, I saw one on offer for only £200 and am tempted, but as I have the cashimira I cant justify it really.