V neck to head joint

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:03 pm

I don't think Hide glue has a long clamp time, especially when I've glued bridges with finger pressure for 4 or 5 minutes - that's got to be better than PVA or the Aliphatics.
The long open time of fish glues that you talk of is a great advantage in certain circumstances. I knew it had a longer open time than Hide glue but not to that extent. It sounds like the perfect glue for doing my rosette rows that consist of 24 strips, they can't be glued with hide or PVA , at least not in one go.
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Alexandru Marian
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Alexandru Marian » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:05 am

80% of my latest is made with the LV fish glue and my experience is exactly as Al is telling.

I was expecting to be able to glue dentellones simply by press fitting each for a short while (10 seconds) then move on to the next. I heard that is how it works with the german Kremer fishglue. No way, the canadian stuff would not set for at least one hour. It does tack on your fingers like crazy so its good to have a place to wash up nearby.

The trick for a quick set is to have a lot of clamping force. I have made a destructive test spruce to very oily Madagascar rosewood. After only 1hour of good clamping it took wood apart.
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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:13 am

That's pretty good on a very oily wood particularly if you didn't degrease it first. I was going to purchase some of the Kremer glue but it seems that you are suggesting that the open time for their fish glue isn't as long as the stuff that Lee Valley sells. I'm after the long open time really.
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Alexandru Marian
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Alexandru Marian » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:20 am

That is what I've heard from a couple other ppl. I did not use the kremer.
I should stress again that under heavy clamping and good fit it tacks quite fast and well. Too well. When clamping the bridge with the stuff it slid a little bit and I could not move it back to real 90 deg on the joint line. Wouldn't have been an issue with white goo.

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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Don Quichotte » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:44 pm

In the magazine “Acoustic Guitar Januari 2008 there is article on the Hauser guitars in which the following statement is written: “Hauser attached headstocks to necks with a very complex technical “V’ joint that, while visually impressive, is musically superfluous." :roll:
There are no comments mentioned on the technical issues of the "V" joint.

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Peter Oberg
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Peter Oberg » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:03 pm

Michael.N. wrote:I don't think Hide glue has a long clamp time, especially when I've glued bridges with finger pressure for 4 or 5 minutes - that's got to be better than PVA or the Aliphatics.
Better in what way? You don't think it has a long clamp time, and that somehow makes it better than PVA or Aliphatics? Could you explain what you mean?
p

Marcus Dominelli
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Marcus Dominelli » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:00 am

Hi Don de La Mancha,
I read the article too. I enjoyed it, but I wondered what R.E. Brune was thinking about the v-joint when he wrote that. I know he does'nt use it, except maybe if he's doing a copy of a Hauser. There are many "musically superfluous" aspects of the guitar once we get down to it. The rosette comes to mind. Binding and purfling too perhaps. I like the v-joint and all of it's "musical superfluousness" though. And I suspect Brune does too.
MD

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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:35 am

sdluthier wrote:
Michael.N. wrote:I don't think Hide glue has a long clamp time, especially when I've glued bridges with finger pressure for 4 or 5 minutes - that's got to be better than PVA or the Aliphatics.
Better in what way? You don't think it has a long clamp time, and that somehow makes it better than PVA or Aliphatics? Could you explain what you mean?
p
Sometimes a short clamp time is an advantage, sometimes it's a disadvantage. With hide glue you can glue on a bridge without clamps and it only takes 4 or 5 minutes of finger pressure. With a rubbed joint it can be less than a minute. Rubbed joints work with PVA but not as well as hide glue does. Hide glue is better if you are using these techniques.
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Alan Carruth
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Alan Carruth » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:07 am

The joint that Hauser used was not the same as the V-joint that, say, Romanillos uses. They called it 'technical' because it's hard to describe in text, but let me give it a try.

Start out cutting the point on the end of the neck. Cut a slot in the point, parallel to the plane of the fingerboard, back to the shoulder. Now widen the upper end of the slot, making the lower surface at the level of, and on the same angle as, the bottom surface of the headstock.

Dress off the neck end of the headstock piece so that it is flat and perpendicular in both directions. Cut a V in the top surface that is as deep at the wide end as the top of the upper surface of the slot is below the neck surface, and tapers up to the top surface of the headstock. The width at the neck end, obviously, will be the same as that of the base of the point on the neck.

If the headstock piece is too thick it will not slide all the way onto the neck piece, but will jam short in the slot. Reduce the thickness of the head piece a little bit by planing the back surface, and try again until it just slides home. This was how it was done on Martin guitars, and the point on the back of the headstock was left proud. Aside from the ease of fitting, an advantage of this style is that the upper part of the point is under the headstock veneer, and need not be a perfect fit for cosmetic purposes. The lower part that is visible is simply on the surface, so there's no trimming to get that right, either.

To make the back point flush you would do the trimming on the back of the headstock just in the area where the point fits. This would be chisel work, but when you got it together it could be indistinguisahable from the outside from the simpler 'Romanillos style' V-joint.

I hope this makes sense.

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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Marcus Dominelli » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:30 am

Hi Alan,
Thanks for your description of the process, although I found it difficult to visualize my way through it. I learned the v-joint from Geza, who learned it from Romanillos. You've probably done both of these methods, correct? Do you prefer one v-joint over the other?
Another question: I did a Panormo copy last year. Louis Panormo did a v-joint that looked even different from our two methods. I did my Romanillos style v-joint on the Panormo copy, even though I know it was not totally authentic. The Panormo v-joint looked like it had very little shoulder compared to the Romanillos joint. Perhaps this was Panormo's attempt to reduce the amount of end-grain to end-grain used in the joint. Are you familiar with the way Panormo did his version?
And finally: A belated welcome to this forum!!
MD

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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:14 am

Frank Ford has some photos of Martins V bridle joint:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... ore01.html

There's quite a variety of them. Scroll down to the Bernhard Kresse Lacote copy:
http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/myguitars.htm

The Panormo does appear to be different. I'm not familiar with his style of head joint but the base of the 'V' is very wide. If you look from the front of the headstock where he did his string slots there doesn't appear to be any evidence of the 'V' .
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Alan Carruth
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Alan Carruth » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:59 pm

I have not done the bridle joint myself, but saw it in the shop of Julius Borges, where they make 'authentic' Martin copies. Once you see it, it becomes quite clear, and seems fairly simple.

I've only worked on one Panormo, and that was a long time ago. From the pictures I've seen it seems that there was quite a range of variation in the proportions of V-joints, with some having no shoulder at all, as far as I can tell. The strength of the joint is in the area of the V : make that too small and you're guaranteed to have problems. The shoulder is only there to stop the joint from shifting under load, and hide glue should not do that in any case unless it's subjected to moist heat. The scroll graft that is seen on older violins is much like a V-joint with little or no shoulder, and I've only seen one of those that has shifted: from spending years in a hot attic.

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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by rico's » Sun May 25, 2014 7:22 pm

Sorry to resurrect this old post but, I just had the horrible idea to try the V joint. I wish I never did that. I ended up with gaps all over the places. But I barely spent 4 hours on it. James, you said on your first it took you two days. I have two options. The first one is just to forget this joint, throw away the cedar blank and start a scarf joint. The second one is to keep trying to make it good. But I don't have any idea if it's still possible.

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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Scot Tremblay » Sun May 25, 2014 8:20 pm

rico's wrote:Sorry to resurrect this old post but, I just had the horrible idea to try the V joint. I wish I never did that. I ended up with gaps all over the places. But I barely spent 4 hours on it. James, you said on your first it took you two days. I have two options. The first one is just to forget this joint, throw away the cedar blank and start a scarf joint. The second one is to keep trying to make it good. But I don't have any idea if it's still possible.
Funny old thread... :wink: I use some form of the V joint (5 or 6 different versions) for every instrument I make (it was the norm everywhere, other than Spain, in the 19th century) and it's really not as problematic as some would make it out to be...although the Panormo one can be a PITA to do by hand if you don't make a proper jig...It's kind of like a locking V shaped mortis and tenon, the female part doesn't go all the way through the head...there's no face plate veneer and you have to be careful that the mortis doesn't run into the tuning machine slots... But that's not addressing your question.

One solution to your problem is to make the gaps a "design feature" and fill them with a 1 - 2 mm ebony/rosewood/walnut/a contrasting wood strip of veneer. The idea is to make the gap uniform and oversize leaving space for the veneer. The male part (neck part) can be left as is (if it is accurately cut) and slowly trim the female (head) part until it fits perfectly with the contrasting veneer fillet in place...you could also do it the other way around depending on which part is perfectly trimmed at the start...

I have done this a number of times on purpose, to bring attention to the joint mainly, and since the female part is usually the difficult one to get perfect, that's the one I most often alter to fit. If carefully done it makes a perfectly secure joint and an interesting bit of color between the neck and head...

I don't seem to have any photos of this joint with a contrasting fillet but I'll keep looking in my mess and if I find one, I'll post it.

Final comment... not to worry, it can be saved.
Scot Tremblay Guitars

"One picture is worth a thousand words. So, for me, one good note put where it should be put, will say what it will take some people many notes to say. ~B.B. King, 1986

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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Sun May 25, 2014 8:24 pm

Did you make a template, or templates? They do make life a lot easier. Everything needs to be knife marked. You might be able to do it with pencil lines but again, it's making things harder. Fine chalk is also very useful. Tools have to be extremely sharp.
4 hours for a first is nothing. Come back and complain after 3 or 4 days!
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