V neck to head joint

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Scot Tremblay
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Scot Tremblay » Sun May 25, 2014 8:29 pm

Michael.N. wrote:.... Everything needs to be knife marked....
That's a very important point, Michael. I tend to forget to mention that and just assume everyone marks with a knife...assuming, we know what that means :wink:
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"One picture is worth a thousand words. So, for me, one good note put where it should be put, will say what it will take some people many notes to say. ~B.B. King, 1986

rico's
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by rico's » Sun May 25, 2014 8:53 pm

There is a nice tutorial on YT by William Nesse. And I just followed that as closely as I could. It does not make use of templates.

Scot Tremblay
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Scot Tremblay » Sun May 25, 2014 10:23 pm

rico's wrote:There is a nice tutorial on YT by William Nesse. And I just followed that as closely as I could. It does not make use of templates.
That's one problem with watching "experts" do these kinds of projects. Very often they have done so many that it becomes second nature to them and aids like jigs or templates are no longer needed. To be sure, their instructions or videos are well ment and often helpful, but unless expressly directed to first timers, important steps might be inadvertently overlooked....

I always suggest that until one has a fair number of...whatever...under the belt aids are always prudent. Materials are expensive and mistakes frustrating.
Scot Tremblay Guitars

"One picture is worth a thousand words. So, for me, one good note put where it should be put, will say what it will take some people many notes to say. ~B.B. King, 1986

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Waddy Thomson
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Waddy Thomson » Mon May 26, 2014 2:32 am

I have messed up more scarf joints than V joints. I now do the V on most of my guitars, because I can do it faster and better.
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rico's
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by rico's » Mon May 26, 2014 5:28 am

Waddy Thomson wrote:I have messed up more scarf joints than V joints. I now do the V on most of my guitars, because I can do it faster and better.
One thing I can't understand, how do you get to the tip of the V in the female part? Can you get a nice pointed tip just by chiselling out material? Bandsaw doesn't get there.

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Michael.N.
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Michael.N. » Mon May 26, 2014 6:43 am

Chisel or slicing cut with a knife.
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simonm
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by simonm » Mon May 26, 2014 11:36 am

Michael.N. wrote:Chisel or slicing cut with a knife.
Ozzie violin makers have a different way of fine detailing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2n1W5THyGQ
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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petermc61
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V neck to head joint

Post by petermc61 » Mon May 26, 2014 11:38 am

Typical Aussie delicacy.

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Paul Janssen
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Paul Janssen » Mon May 26, 2014 2:10 pm

Ozzie violin makers have a different way of fine detailing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2n1W5THyGQ
:lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]

I"m pretty sure this was the same technique used to "carve up" the recent federal budget in Australia!!

Scot Tremblay
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Scot Tremblay » Mon May 26, 2014 2:16 pm

rico's wrote:...One thing I can't understand, how do you get to the tip of the V in the female part? Can you get a nice pointed tip just by chiselling out material? Bandsaw doesn't get there.
Here's one way of getting the female part...After cutting the angled part (which butts up to the neck) on the table saw, I use a violin makers knife to mark out the V using the male neck part as the template. I run a pencil down the knife marks as it makes the lines easier for my old eyes to see it but if you have good eyes, that's not necessary. I then carefully cut the waste section out with my rip dovetail saw (I find a hand saw faster and more accurate for this operation, others may differ). It leaves a 0.026 kerf and just reachs the bottom of the V. The point of the V is then cleaned up with the violin makers knife using a slicing cut as Michael suggests. If the stars align exactly with Jupiter and Mars, the head fits to the neck perfectly right after brushing off the sawdust but often it takes a tiny bit of adjusting/cleaning up with the knife and/or chisel to get a tight fit all around.

Generally speaking it takes about an hour (most often less) to make this joint from neck blank to glue-up stage. But that might be a little deceptive as the male part of the joint is cut on my table saw using an adjustable jig I made which does the job in four easy cuts (two if making the Panormo style V). So all I'm really hand cutting is the female part of the V.

Cutting head joint.jpg
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"One picture is worth a thousand words. So, for me, one good note put where it should be put, will say what it will take some people many notes to say. ~B.B. King, 1986

Alan Carruth
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Alan Carruth » Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm

I had a student who was ex-Marine Special Forces, and he used to say there are very few things that cannot be done with explosives. I haven't tried that yet...

Normally with a mortise and tenon you cut the mortise first, since it's the harder part to get right. Then you fit the tenon to that. On a V-joint I cut the tenon first, for two reasons:
1) I've got more work in the neck at that point then the head, and
2) it won't look right if it's off center.

A really sharp chisel can cut against the grain for a little way, and that's how I take care of the point in the mortise.

Once you get the tenon right, don't touch it again. Just fit the mortise to it. ALL of the surfaces MUST be flat! If you mess up a head blank it's not a tragedy.

rico's
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by rico's » Mon May 26, 2014 6:55 pm

Thanks to all for the tutorial. I will treasure. So, the survey now would be: cut the female or male first? At first thought I, like Scott, I would say cut the male first and use that as a template. Might I might be wrong.

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Waddy Thomson
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Waddy Thomson » Mon May 26, 2014 9:21 pm

That is correct.
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Scot Tremblay
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Scot Tremblay » Tue May 27, 2014 1:09 am

Some luthiers do the V joint with the mortise first and then the tenon (that's certainly how we were taught in furniture school) but most do it the opposite way or as Alan or I laid out above. I've tried the standard mortise and tenon sequence with this joint but because I do some of it with a table saw and some by hand it just makes more sense to me to do the tenon (male part) first and mortise (female) after. It does take a little more care to slightly undersize the mortise as it's being cut so there is a little room for fitting after.
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"One picture is worth a thousand words. So, for me, one good note put where it should be put, will say what it will take some people many notes to say. ~B.B. King, 1986

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Waddy Thomson
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Re: V neck to head joint

Post by Waddy Thomson » Tue May 27, 2014 2:49 am

I do the male part on a table saw too.
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