Ramirez forgery ???

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments

Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:20 pm

I need some honest opinions from anyone who is knowledgeable of Jose Ramirez Estudio Guitars from the mid 1970’s. I just purchased a guitar on e - b a y that was advertised as a 1978 Jose Ramirez Estudio. I paid $1200 plus shipping. I have some questions as to if it is a counterfeit. First let me say that I have two other Ramirez guitars, a 2005 R-4 and a 2007 Anos 125. The guitar in question is absolutely beautiful, way too good looking for a 33 year old guitar, and the tone – at best, OK. Not as good as my other two Ramirez’s. But I was suspicious because:
1: the label inside isn’t even cut square to the blue border. (could they be that sloppy?)
2: I am trying to find if they used the shape of the headstock on the Estudio guitars in 1978. This appears to have the headstock that came on the 1a guitars of that time.
2: The angle of the head off the neck is noticeably less than my other two Ramirez’s. I am aware that none of these guitars were actually made in the Ramirez work shops but they were made to specific specs.
3: does anyone know what rosette design they used in 1978

It does appear that the case it came with is consistent with the case sold with the Ramirez guitars of the time.
There is a guitar, right now on e - b a y (http://cgi.e - b a y.com/Vintage-Japanese-Cl ... 1c1d7092c0) that is advertised as a Japanese Ramirez copy. It looks very much like the guitar that I just bought.
If anyone with some knowledge can look at the pictures below and let me know it you think I got hosed or not. I thank you very much.
s_Ramirez_Estudio 012.jpg

s_Ramirez_Estudio 002.jpg

s_Ramirez_Estudio 003.jpg

s_Ramirez_Estudio 015.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Log on to the forum and post a few messages to get permission to view these files.
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby Marco.Silva » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:31 pm

the "Ramirez" on e - b a y does not have a Ramirez label. But indeed it looks like a Japanese built guitar as advertised. Now, you have 3 Ramirez guitars that are outsourced factory( "not made at the Ramirez's shop", just inspected). Why don't you sell the 3, and buy yourself a nice luthier built guitar(used about $3K)?
Regards,
Marco
____________________________
1966 Di Giorgio Autor 3 Solid Spruce/Solid Brazilian Rosewood Sides/Laminated back/ La Bella 900B Strs.
1973 Hiroshi Tamura P45 Solid Cedar/ Rosewood Back/Sides/ Savarez Cantiga Strs.
Marco.Silva
Student of the online lessons
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:33 am
Location: Fort Lauderdale, florida, USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby Mercurio2688 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:38 pm

Very nice guitar!I have a 1965 studio Ramirez guitar but it does not look like this one at all. Mine has round blue label..
I hardly recomend you (and all) to before buying spanish made guitars on e - b a y first check spanish second hand sites like milanuncios.com where you can find realy cheap guitars.
Greetings from Spain.
-Juan Montes 2010 Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood
-Hijos de González ca.1890 Spruce/Walnut ( Sons of Francisco González, Madrid)
-Ramirez 1965 Spruce/Indian Rosewood [SOLD]
User avatar
Mercurio2688
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:43 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain.

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:04 pm

msilva12000 wrote:the "Ramirez" on e - b a y does not have a Ramirez label. But indeed it looks like a Japanese built guitar as advertised. Now, you have 3 Ramirez guitars that are outsourced factory( "not made at the Ramirez's shop", just inspected). Why don't you sell the 3, and buy yourself a nice luthier built guitar(used about $3K)?

Hi Marco
You sound almost like my wife, "you had two Ramirez guitars, why did you buy another one!?!" Except you are a little more understanding by saying "buy yourself a nice luthier built guitar". I could go for that idea!
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:10 pm

Mercurio2688 wrote:Very nice guitar!I have a 1965 studio Ramirez guitar but it does not look like this one at all. Mine has round blue label..
I hardly recomend you (and all) to before buying spanish made guitars on e - b a y first check spanish second hand sites like milanuncios.com where you can find realy cheap guitars.
Greetings from Spain.

Hi Mercurio2688
I have seen labels like the one my guitar has (but not cut crooked). Your english is much better than my Spanish (which is 0) otherwise i would look at milanuncios.com. But thanks
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:06 pm

I was hoping that someone out there would have a Ramirez Estudio from the mid to late 1970's that could look at the features of my guitar (above) and be able to tell if this guitar is authentic ? yes, no, maybe so?
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby jorpheus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:47 pm

Hello,

There is a vintage Ramirez Estudio on e - b a y sold by a guy named "ypersonne" from Spain.

The guitar is from 1977 and has the same label as yours but is cut correctly.

Have a look at the pictures.

I have a guitar that is 100% identical (rosette, headstock, materials, ...) made in the Taurus workshop in Barcelona the same year. Mine is signed by A. Grau (the boss of the workshop as A. Picado told me) and is Model 61. It is an exzellent guitar.

However I have never seen a guitar made by Taurus with such a rosette as yours.

Have you tried to look into your guitar with a small mirror? Anything stamped on the heel where the neck starts inside the body?

Best wishes,

jorpheus
jorpheus
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:34 pm

Hi jorphus
I went to e - b a y - searched ramirez guitar and couldn't find the Ramirez Estudio you mention above and I couldn't find a way to search by the seller "ypersonne"to find it
I did see one Taurus Classical guitar, but couldn't see much detail by the picture posted.
If you know of any pictures of a Ramirez Estudio from that time period (mid to late 1970's)I would be very gratefull if you (or anyone else) could PM me the links. Thanks.
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby jorpheus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:27 pm

Hi,

The item number is 200524777850

I can find the guitar by searching "Ramirez Estudio Vintage" - but it is in Spain, not the USA

There are many pictures in the description and it has the same label as your guitar, made in 1977

It is a Ramirez Estudio, not a Taurus - but they are identical, except for the label

Best,

jorpheus
jorpheus
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:42 pm

jorpheus
Thank you very much for giving me the item number (it doesn't come up here in the USA by searching for just Ramirez Guitar).
That guitar is just like mine in every way except the rosette is different (and my label is a bit crooked). Mine also came with the same oversized case (notice the loose fit in the pictures) and the same documentation. Well this puts my mind at ease - that mine is not a counterfit. It also looks like I got a pretty good deal for $1200.00 compaired to the $2800.00+ he is asking for that one.
I really appreciate you finding this information for me, thank you and Gracias!
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby jorpheus » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:14 pm

Hi,

Yes the headstock is identical also with mine, and also the case. To me it looks like your guitar was indeed made by Taurus according to the Ramirez specs.

You can also check
- the bracing (is there an asymmetric bar crossing close to the soundhole (you can see it below the bass strings)
- the numbering (Taurus placed small labels inside e.g. on the end block, with the serial number)
- the tuners (should be Fusteros with kind of a curved flower or a wave, and the lyra)

Best wishes,

jorpheus
jorpheus
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:16 pm

jorpheus
- yes there is a brace that runs at an angle from the bottom of the sound hole to the upper bout on the bass side of the guitar
- I could not find any numbering inside - besides what is on the label. I poked around with a dental mirror.
- Sounds like the same tuners (see picture). But mine seem to be a bit sloppy. I did put a drop of oil on them but haven't tried adjusting the set screw yet.

I just found it a bit suspicious that this 1978 guitar looks brand new, no wear at all.

So is it documented anywhere that Taurus was building the student guitars for Ramirez in the later 1970's ? I heard of other companies as of recent.

is it possible for you to post a picture of your taurus?

--Howie
s_Ramirez_Estudio_tuners.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Log on to the forum and post a few messages to get permission to view these files.
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby jorpheus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:42 am

Hi,

here are some pictures. I do not have a clear picture of the tuners here. - Does your guitar have a black (ebony) stripe on the back of the neck?

There is no official documentation of the Taurus-Ramirez connection, as far as I know. But if you compare my guitar (Taurus label model 60) with the pictures by that "ypersonne" (Ramirez Estudio label and official documents) one can see that they are like twins.

My Taurus guitar has a great sound, really like a master instrument. I have a small collection of guitars incl. from Marin Montero and Contreras. The Taurus is really a phantastic guitar, but not easy to play because of the large neck and long scale. Also the materials are beautiful: cedar, ebony, rosewood.

Last: when I bought mine in Paris a few years ago, it looked nearly like new, not played a lot. But: usually, the frets will change colour from silver to more yellow-golden with time. Also the one on e - b a y looks like new.

Best wishes,

jorpheus
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post. Log on to the forum and post a few messages to get permission to view these files.
jorpheus
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby take5guy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:39 pm

Yes, mine has the ebony stripe also

Take a look at this on e - b a y - Item # 120753001152
it is advertised as a Japanese copy of a Ramirez. It looks very much like both of our guitars.

Also look at this item # 260821900081
It is a 1969 Taurus - very different, looks like a cheaper model, maybe a rosewood fret board, different headstock, back and sides made out of ????

I wasn't impressed with the tone of my guitar - but I am comparing it to my Ramirez anos 125 which is just incredible.
I am hoping that if it gets played enough it will open up a bit. I was thinking of loaning it to my 21 year old Nephew who is really doing well on classical guitar. He has a bottom of the line $99.00 Yahama so he would thrilled to put many hours on it. But he is a bit careless, I've seen the way he handles his guitar so I'm not 100% sure if i can trust him to be careful.

Thank you for your info
--Howie
"I got the right notes, but I play the wrong song"
User avatar
take5guy
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:52 pm
Location: Somerset, NJ USA

Re: Ramirez forgery ???

Postby jorpheus » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:05 pm

Hi,

This "Japanese Ramirez copy" on e - b a y is certainly a typical example. It seems they produced quite a lot in the 70ies, but I have never played one of those. Concerning guitars from Japan, my choice is the original Kohno.

Guitars vary a lot even from the same workshop. The "high-end" Taurus models seem to be quite good. Some people say that the "old" Taurus guitars (i.e. back to the 60ies) were better. I don't know. My model 60 made in 1977 is very impressive.

Best wishes, and have fun with your guitar(s),

jorpheus
jorpheus
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:35 pm
Location: Europe

Next

Return to Luthiers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], CommonCrawl [Bot], da23will, David LaPlante, dbeau, DennisK, Douglass Scott, Google [Bot], HNLim, LBrandt, Lovemyguitar, Matt Jacobs, muirtan, riffmeister, senunkan, singularity, UKsteve, Vlad Kosulin and 107 guests