Lowering the nut

[Harry Jess]

I have just got a Nicholas C Ramirez Styled guitar - a beauty in red cedar and black walnut- and with wondeful lighter stripes on the Philippine ebony (Kamagong) fret board. The sound is surpringly loud and clear for such an inexpensive instrument (only $700 hard case and shipping included). But the action at the nut is too high compared to my Loriente Sofia. If the nut is glued to the headstock and difficult to get loose without damaging it, can I then file down the top a bit and and then make the slots deeper to lower the action in that way? What do the Lords of the Frets say to this? Both the nut and the saddle are bone. BTW, I have a good pippin file for that purpose.
Harry

[johnparchem]

I would not file down the top or the nut first, I would file the slots deeper. Once the slots were set I would file, sand and buff the top of the nut if the strings were too deep. I have a whole set of files to do this work. The angle of the slot should match the angle of the peg head, it should be just a bit wider than the string and roundish on the bottom so the string sets nicly. I also like to open the back of the slot a bit to keep the strings from binding. I like the strings to be just above the first fret when freting the third fret. (edited error)

If you have not done this you can make your guitar worse, but guitar nuts are replaceable.

[Setitup Dan]

I like the strings to be just above the first fret when freting the second fret.

I think you meant to say "I like the strings to be just above the first fret when freting the third fret.

Dan
http://www.setitupbetter.com

[Harry Jess]

John and Dan, thanks for fine input. I have a couple of blank extranuts in case of emergency. I'll set to work shortly and inform you of the outcome. But first I'll have a look at the link Dan gave.

Harry

[pmiklitz]

I have just got a Nicholas C Ramirez Styled guitar - a beauty in red cedar and black walnut- and with wondeful lighter stripes on the Philippine ebony (Kamagong) fret board. The sound is surpringly loud and clear for such an inexpensive instrument (only $700 hard case and shipping included). But the action at the nut is too high compared to my Loriente Sofia. If the nut is glued to the headstock and difficult to get loose without damaging it, can I then file down the top a bit and and then make the slots deeper to lower the action in that way? What do the Lords of the Frets say to this? Both the nut and the saddle are bone. BTW, I have a good pippin file for that purpose.
Harry

Personally, I would leave such things to an expert. I had the action of my Armin Gropp guitar lowered recently and it's now much easier to play.

As an aside, the music shop keeper told me that a former roadie of Iron Maiden is actually doing the work for them. Although I was apprehensive at first, thinking "What does a roadie of a metal band know about classical guitars?", he did a very good job. In fact he liked my guitar so much that he played it all night until his neighbors complained .

Cheers,

Peter

[Intune]

I would echo the caution of some of the replies you've already gotten: if you haven't done this job before, take your guitar to a luthier to have it done properly. It's best to use special guitar nut files of various widths to lower the string slots, and if this it done wrong -- for instance, if a slot is made too low, too tight or wide, or set at a wrong angle -- you can introduce buzzes and other problems. If you want your new guitar to play at its best, take it to an experienced pro.

[johnparchem]

I like the strings to be just above the first fret when freting the second fret.

I think you meant to say "I like the strings to be just above the first fret when freting the third fret.

Dan
http://www.setitupbetter.com

yes thank you.

[Vesavekkuli]

Generally, you need to have the nut on it's place when you do the filing, because the measurements should be done many times during the work, the string angle on top of the nut should be in the middle of the angle from the nut edge to tuning-machine and the finger-board to avoid buzzes. If the nut is much too high, you shoul be carefull with deepening the slot, because the slot tends to enter to a wrong place when the file goes deeper on the slott. To avoid this the exact place of the slot should be marked also on the front side of the nut, not only on top of the nut when you start filing. The front edge of the nut tends to "eat" the higher strings (upper, diskants), that's why you will have to make the front edge of the slot just a little bit round - not too much, because the notes on the 1st and 2nd position go too high. If you want to practice, do it with the same material (bone) as the final part. Don't hesitate - don't listen to those who say "don't try to do it, take it to a professional" - if you cannot manage, at least you tried and happily pay the money to the luthier when you realize that it may be difficult to do right. You cannot spoil the guitar so, bone parts can be easily replaced. Perhaps it's a good idea to take off the original and start making totally new nut.

[Harry Jess]

Vekkuli, words of wisdom!
Before I read the posts advocating caution, I had already used my pippin file.... I partly succeeded, but the open B string has a sort of "buzz" which disappears when fretting it. Perhaps I need to round the front edge a bit, as you mention. But at least I brought the action down. But as you say, not much harm is done, and I have ordered a couple of slotted bone nuts which I can file on the bottom side, keeping the slots unharmed.

Best regards
Harry

[James Lister]

Vekkuli, words of wisdom!
Before I read the posts advocating caution, I had already used my pippin file.... I partly succeeded, but the open B string has a sort of "buzz" which disappears when fretting it. Perhaps I need to round the front edge a bit, as you mention. But at least I brought the action down. But as you say, not much harm is done, and I have ordered a couple of slotted bone nuts which I can file on the bottom side, keeping the slots unharmed.

Best regards
Harry

Not sure why rounding the front edge of the slot was recommended - this can easily cause buzzing if you overdo it, and it's not really necessary IMO.

James

[Vesavekkuli]

Vekkuli, words of wisdom!
Before I read the posts advocating caution, I had already used my pippin file.... I partly succeeded, but the open B string has a sort of "buzz" which disappears when fretting it. Perhaps I need to round the front edge a bit, as you mention. But at least I brought the action down. But as you say, not much harm is done, and I have ordered a couple of slotted bone nuts which I can file on the bottom side, keeping the slots unharmed.

Best regards
Harry

Harry, the buzz comes because of air between the string and nut - the purpose for rounding the right edge about 0,05 mm(with right handed guitarist) is to avoid the edge of the nut to brake or even cut the string totally, but too shallow rounding may cause buzz. The angle on top of the nut will be different on all the strings, it depends on which angle each string goes away from the nut - file each slot so that your keep the file on an angle which is between the fingerboard angle and the angle on which the string goes away from the nut, when the string has been put on it's own place. That's why before you start, you put the nut on it's place, all the strings on their places, tune the guitar so that all the time five strings (except the one with which you are working) are pressing the nut firmly on it's place. When you start filing, just loose the string so that it can be pullet on the side during filing. Always before you start moving you hand with the file, measure the right angle only with your eyes. Be sure not to file it too much - all the time put the string on it's slot and press the string from 3th position - while pressing like this the string should'n ever touch the 1st fret. Every time, just before you measure between, make the right edge 0,05 mm round - otherwise the edge eats the string and spoils it, and you'll run out of all your 1st strings. The trumpet shape on the left end of the slot (with right handed guitarist) doesn't need to be symmetric, but shape it so thet the string will not make very sharp turn sideways on the left edge of the nut. The trumpet shape doesn't need to be shaped downwards because it may easily become too shallow, it may cause buzz because too long part of the string goes too close to the bone - the left end of the bottom of the slot can be made just same way 0,05 mm round as from the right end - however you do don't leave any kind of very tiny space between the string and the nut to avoid buzz. Pre-shaped nuts usually have too low slots and they should usually be shaped properly - a slott should be just a little bit wider than the string - you can polish the bottom of slots to make tuning smoother and more precise - the macine should be clean and oiled ... After the slots are totally ready, you take the nut off, file the extra bone away from all over, shape it nicely, sand it very smooth, polish it with the finest 11 000 grid sandpaper or polish it some other way - don't sand the bottom and the right side - it can be glued with just a few drops of super-glue - only if the nut fits perfectly in the guitar and doesn't move at all after tuning it will not need to be glued. When you glue it you have to press it very firmly on it's place a few minutes before you put on the strings. Avoid using too much glue, because of the great difficulty to take off the nut, if needed, without damaging the wood - you can of course warm up the nut, but then the finish is in danger. If you have another guitar, you can practise with it, and finally try to work with Ramirez without taking the nut off at all. The strings shouldn't touch the wood between the nut and the tuning-machine (buzz, buzz, buzz)

[Harry Jess]

Wow... That was quite a lecture! I'll print it out and study it carefully. Thank you very much, Vekkuli!

Harry

[Vesavekkuli]

Thanks Harry, I am just learning by myself, too. Good bless internet and all those good people there. I do repair work every day, play and teach. I am a guitar lover - a professional, but a real amateur.

[Harry Jess]

Just for sake of information: Acting on the advice given by Vekkuli I managed to get the open B right again. But I'll end up with tree extra slotted bone nuts which I can save for a rainy day.....

All's well that ends well!

Harry

[Vesavekkuli]

Bravo! (during a lesson (!) )