warranty issues

[tony soprano]

6 years ago I sold a guitar that I built to a guy who lives in Devon, UK. As a hobby builder I didn’t make too much profit but still offered a life time warranty on the workmanship. The guitar was built at around 45% RH using mainly hide glue.

My question is, the guy who owns the guitar is moving to Thailand for a year. He intends to take the guitar with him and I advised him against this. He insists, so I told him that the warranty will become invalid, should he do so. He is not happy.

I know most makers offer a warranty on workmanship and advise on issues of humidity etc. but how do you guard against the above dilemma? Would it worry you too?

Thank you.

[Aaron Green]

Any warranty should be contingent on the instrument being properly cared for. If he takes it to Thailand, it is the same as moving to Alaska. The ambient humidity is unsuitable for the guitar and he should take all necessary precautions. One can dehumidify just as one can humidify.

If he doesn't and the guitar suffers, this is not the fault of the builder. Since he's had the guitar for 6 years, any issues relating to poor workmanship or sloppy glue joints, defective materials etc....would have presented themselves by now. So I'd say he's on his own if he fails to recognize that guitars are made from wood, wood is affected by the atmosphere that surrounds it and thin pieces of wood that are bound on all edges don't have anywhere to go after a certain point. When they get to that point, things start to go bad very quickly.

aaron

[lagartija]

I'm not a luthier. However, as a customer of a luthier built guitar, I think it is unrealistic and unfair of him to expect a warranty to be valid in the situation you describe. The guitar has been played and owned for six years without a problem. If someone then plans to change the climatic conditions so radically and actually expects that you will fix whatever happens when the climate has its way with the guitar, this seems like an unfair burden. I think you are justified in saying that the warranty is void and that you are not going to be responsible for what happens if the client does not properly dehumidify the guitar. Perhaps suggesting that he sell the guitar and buy one made under the same conditions where he is going to live would be better than trying to keep this one from self-destructing.

[George Crocket]

A lifetime is four score years and ten, but if you do not look after yourself properly, your life will be shortened. I think this is true of guitars as well as people.

[Les Backshall]

Whether or not you (or me, or anyone else) thinks the client is being unreasonable doesn't really come into it. You have given a warranty and you can't just decide unilaterally to void it, regardless of where the client may move to, unless you specifically stated that the guitar had to stay in the UK.

If your warranty was in writing, and specifically excludes damage due to extremes of humidity/temperature then you shouldn't be liable for a claim on that front. But, if you weren't specific, then the client may feel that he should be able to go wherever he wants and still be covered. I would recommend that you write to your client stating your misgivings, and the risks of taking the guitar to a place like Thailand. Explain that although your workmanship will still be covered, you will not be liable for any damage due to heat/humidity. At least then, if you are subject to a legal claim, you can produce written evidence of your position and warnings.

However, you have to accept that any decision to make a warranty claim is entirely up to the client: likewise it is entirely up to you how you handle it. If your client did make a claim and you disputed it, you could end up having to argue it out in the small claims court - unfortunately that's how business works sometimes.

Les

[tuk]

agree with les, that's why manufacturers provide small print to limit their warranty to 'reasonable use'

However...

offered a life time warranty on the workmanship

damage to the guitar caused by extreme humidity is unlikely to be the fault of workmanship, I'm pretty sure this could be argued successfully in a small claims court, assuming the type of damage points towards extreme humidity ...where would a court draw the line? ..just because you gave him a lifetime warranty( without detail ) does that allow the customer to play the guitar underwater and still be covered ...I think if it went to court common sense would prevail

That said, going to Thailand shouldn't automatically void the warranty, he might well take measures to keep the humidity at sensible levels...but that will probably involve a case with its own AC( if such a thing exists ) and never taking the guitar out of the case unless in an AC room

I would avoid the courts if possible, rewrite your warranty, & after explaining in great detail how Thailand is the 'humidity fluctuation' capital of the world, tell him signs of humidity damage will void the warranty...so at his own risk, send by email that way you have informed him in writing

[robin loops]

If he beat it on the stage doing a pete townsend impression, it would void the warranty. A warranty isn't the same as an insurance policy. No one would expect that a lost or stolen item would be replaced nor a user damaged one. If it suffers damage related to the extreme conditions it gets exposed to, you shouldn't feel any obligation to fix or replace it. But I don't know about rewriting your warranty. Pretty sure you can't change that unless you had it written into the original warranty that it was 'subject to changes in these terms and conditions'. Surely it was written in there that damage was not covered so you should be covered there even if you can't change it.

At some point in the future you could end up deciding that a minor repair is less hassle than a court battle but be careful! In some cases this could be legally assuming liability for the damage and could cause problems for you down the line.

[Aaron Green]

I think the lesson here is to be very careful as to how you word your warranty. It's quite easy for blanket statements to come back and make life difficult. That being said, the idea that someone in Thailand would sue someone in the States for something as small potatoes as a guitar is just not likely. I would just explain the situation to the owner, that you would prefer he take good care of the guitar you made and if he does, you 'll be there if there is a problem.

aaron

[tuk]

just to clarify, when I say rewrite(comprehensively) the warranty I mean for future guitars

[dng]

here's my thinking...

1. offering a life time warranty is risky. The alternative is a limited life time warranty which is under certain condition from the maker.

2. you could decline the warranty repair if you can prove the customer is negligent regarding the care of the guitar... but then how would you do that? your words against his...

good luck

[tony soprano]

Thanks for your opinions

To be perfectly honest this guy has been a thorn in my side for many years. The guitar took me about 200 hours to build and I think I ended up earning around £3 per hour profit on it. I was just happy to sell the guitar and get some cash for more wood, but afterwards got the feeling that I had been done.

I remember at the time when he asked “what sort of warranty do I get” thinking oh here we go. I get the odd phone call saying how happy he is with the guitar, and if I get a spare 5 mins could I polish out the nail marks?

Anyway the warranty was in writing and if I remember correctly I worded it (hand written, and signed), that the workmanship was guaranteed for my life ( where’s that rope ) and just some general blurb on how to store, clean and care for it. At the time I was a bit caught of guard by the request for a warranty, being, he got a good deal.

When I told him it is not a good idea to take the guitar to Thailand, and explained why, he said “what about John Williams?, he takes his all over the world with no problems“. I told him that JW knows a great deal about guitars and is aware of how to care for them correctly. His reply was “rubbish he knows nothing about guitars, I once saw him on TV being handed a guitar by Smallman saying he has never seen the inside of a guitar before”

You see what I am dealing with?

In fact I hope he sees this thread!

[petermc61]

In many countries I gather there is an implied warranty about "fitness for intended purposes" of goods sold. There certainly is in Australia. This can have the effect of extending the formal warranty provided on goods by a manufacturer if the court or small claims tribunal believes the formal warranty offered was unduly restrictive. I doubt however that a manufacturer could seek to limit through this process any broader warranty it gave as part of a purchase contract. I guess the lesson here is to provide a reasonable warranty rather than a lifetime, unconditional warranty.

From a customer management perspective, if a luthier did provide exceptional support beyond the warranty terms it is more likely to delight the owner - and word of mouth is very powerful marketing tool in the days of the Internet. On the reverse side, providing a warranty commitment that you cannot or wish to not honour in the future is setting yourself up for some potentially serious Internet flack, whether or not the complaint or the customer is reasonable.

Peter

[LVR]

If the written warranty says "workmanship" is what is covered, I should think you are in the clear. Time to take a firm line with this user: you've done your job as a luthier already and he has nothing more to claim from you, not even a spare 5 minutes unless he wants to pay you for the time. (I'm not a lawyer. This is opinion merely.)

[montana]

ok here it is... maybe im a rocket scientist...or maybe, by dumb luck, i just stumbled on this idea, so brilliant that it has never been concieved of before...bring a beater cg for the year!!!!!!!!!! If there are any cg builders in Thailand, he might just find a diamond in the rough real cheap

[CG-phile]

Perhaps it would be helpful to provide the client with some concrete educational material on the real and damaging effects of over-humidification. This tech sheet from Taylor Guitars could serve as an effective means of getting the point across. In addition, these videos posted by GuitarVlog, also from Taylor Guitars, show how damaging insufficient humidification can be as well.

I trust you'll be able to convince this client that any damage caused by humidity extremes is beyond your control and, therefore, not your responsibility. Good luck!