The Future of Ebony....

[Guitar]

It's absolutely a business decision. I sure do wish I could find it, but there was a brilliant Ted.com speech by a gentleman who articulated one of the central precepts of 'new marketing'.

Some companies learned that one of the best ways to inspire a loyal-to-the-point-of-religion customer base wasn't to simply sell them a product, but to offer them something to *believe* in. Don't simply recite what your product is (this is our great Apple computer with a super fast processor, sleek design and a huge hard drive)... Present a thesis of 'beliefs' and let those who want to believe what you believe (or, claim to) join the party by purchasing your product (This is our Apple computer. We think different. We believe that those who think different are special. That's who our computer is built for. Do you think different? Our computer is for you...)

The result is fanatically loyal customers.

This is no different than the properties of old growth BRW versus the new stuff. We used to only want OG timber. When that ran out, we came to accept the leaner stuff. Now that all BRW is gone, we hardly draw any distinction between old or new. Taylor is basically saying "I control all the ebony. Due to supply issues, we're now going to start using the colored ebony and charging the same price for it... Oh yeah, and free Tibet, stop global warming, save the whales and all that..."

Forgive my cynicism, but as others pointed out, this decision is motivated by economic necessity. Bob Taylor is smart enough to realize that by presenting it as an ethical stand, he bottles the lightning of green consumer fanaticism that right now is incredibly profitable.

[singularity]

We can only speculate what Bob's true intentions are with this initiative. Only he and his board of directors know what they are trying to accomplish here. There is, however, another dimension that was not considered here and that is the risk that he is taking by doing this. Bob could have decided that only Taylor guitars get 1st grade ebony and everybody else mixed grade as some other CEO (whose name I won’t utter) most likely would do since they control 70% of ebony exports from Cameroon. The risk would be the perception that Taylor guitars CO. is using "junk" as my buddy (long time guitar seller) automatically proclaimed when I told him about it. This perception is real and could be very damaging to Taylor Guitar Co, and the only leverage Bob has right now is to force other guitar manufacturers to do the same.

The fact is that ebony supply is finite and it's only a matter of time before Cameroon stops exporting ebony mostly because of huge demand by Chinese (just check ali ba ba for rosewood and ebony requests from China, some pay in gold?) and even with this initiative Bob is just postponing the inevitable.
FWIW I prefer African Blackwood over ebony anyway. Let me stockpile on it while I can.

s

[carlos]

What ever happened to the other 8 trees out of the 10 that were cut to obtain the black ebony, during so many years? Were those spared, and left there in the forest? Or did Taylor go back to salvage the wood left behind?

[Guitar]

The risk would be the perception that Taylor guitars CO. is using "junk" as my buddy (long time guitar seller) automatically proclaimed when I told him about it. This perception is real and could be very damaging to Taylor Guitar Co, and the only leverage Bob has right now is to force other guitar manufacturers to do the same.

Taylor is smart enough to realize that the most lucrative perception to have is that of guitar buyers rather than crusty wholesalers and superstitious old kooks. In the year 2012 going forward, there is probably a lot more money to be made by inventing yourself as "the fine guitar company with an environmental conscience" than there is to be made as the company hoping to sell elephant ivory and rainforest hardwoods to deluded traditionalists.

He's taking a very progressive, very 'conscious' position to be sure- and perhaps it's a legitimate blend of idealism and good business- but I do think the business aspects are getting whitewashed in favor of the soaring idealism. There is no doubt whatsoever this decision makes Bob Taylor significantly more money than if we stuck with black ebony only.

huge demand by Chinese (just check ali ba ba for rosewood and ebony requests from China, some pay in gold?)

They are totally scary, in terms of the breadth of their appetite for certain materials and their willingness to suspend all matters of conscience to acquire it (not to mention their insanely expanding wealth base)

[AndrewF]

On another forum there was a thread about how to make ebony black, and it got me thinking, and so I discovered this thread here, which I haven't read yet.

I'd always assumed black was the colour of sophistication, and a black ebony fingerboard was the goal, but then I bought an old Yamaha CG110 and took off the strings and cleaned up the ovangkol fingerboard with a little furniture polish, and now I love its rich dark mahogany colour, and that got me thinking perhaps jet-black ebony is a bit crude, and why not enjoy its natural colour, or abandon it if it fetches silly prices?

The literature always says oboes are made from "African blackwood". What's that?

Imagine how expensive koa will become when the Chinese discover the ukulele craze!

OK, now you can tell me which part of this thread I should have read before posting something so silly.

[Alexandru Marian]

ABW is a rosewood, the only one from mainland Africa (mostly Tanzania and Mozambique). It is heavier and harder than ebony in average, also harder to work and tougher on tools, and costs 2-3 times as much. It is also rarer, and endangered too. Definitively not an alternative for the mainstream. When worked it looks like Indian or Brazilian that has been forged tighter and dipped in ink, but after it has frets and strings and some playing muck you can't tell it apart from ebony. I've used it on 2 guitars so far and it is my favorite but compared to it even finest ebony is common as dirt.

[Guitar]

I'm on my 4th total overhaul of a pre 1850 instrument- the ebony fingerboards on them is insane. Jet, jet, jet black and dense as can be.

The ebony is one of the first things I appraise when considering a candidate instrument for restoration, since it's one of the hardest things to duplicate. Anything can be fixed, most anything can be replaced but getting that kind of ebony in the year 2012? Good luck...

The closest thing to a surrogate is polish a streaked piece of ebony to a high grit, then dye it.

[Marcus Dominelli]

[

I'm on my 4th total overhaul of a pre 1850 instrument- the ebony fingerboards on them is insane. Jet, jet, jet black and dense as can be.

Most of the old violins have ebony as you describe.
The densest ebony I've been able to obtain recently was from India. It was super dense and had almost no porosity, but it also has lots of grey streaks in it.
I'll start using it in a few years when averyone is used to the non-black ebony we'll be getting, thanks a la Bob Taylor and Madinter.

The ebony is one of the first things I appraise when considering a candidate instrument for restoration, since it's one of the hardest things to duplicate.

Would you seriously turn down a restoration job just because you might be unable to obtain ebony of the original quality to he original?? One must do the best one can...given the resources at his disposal.

[Alexandru Marian]

I don't get it, all the ebony I bought so far, about 50 pieces in 4 years, from many different sellers, African, Madagascar and Indian, has been pure black. I mostly bought the best grade available. Some of them were second grade when i was short or money or first was out of stock, and even those barely have a tawny or grey streak here and there, which anyway disappear once they see some finger grease.

[Alexandru Marian]

On the pores, I actually want to see them. The wider and longer they are, the better the cut - best stability. When the wood has runout, the pores show short. When it is rift cut, they show narrow. When flatsawn, they turn to very narrow lines. Such wood I send back or keep for neck reinforcements.

[Marcus Dominelli]

I don't get it, all the ebony I bought so far, about 50 pieces in 4 years, from many different sellers, African, Madagascar and Indian, has been pure black

I've said it before Alex, it's because you're in Romania. All roads leave to .....Romania! But seriously, I think this is pretty normal for us hand builders. We buy wood in small quantities and can pick and choose what we want. The big manufactureres buy wood by the pallet load, and although they stipulate that it all be a certain grade, a percentage of it is always low grade, so it ends up on their guitars.
That ebony fingerboard you and I pay 20 bucks for cost the big guys about $2.

I used to go to a local tonewood factory and skim throught the "mastergrade and AAA piles of spruce and cedar. Those stacks were full of AA grade all the time. I think this is pretty normal. The big factories were paying $4 for a top that stew mac would charge $40 for.

[quote="Alexandru Marian"]On the pores, I actually want to see them.

Now you're just being nerdy. End of story.

[Scot Tremblay]

What ever happened to the other 8 trees out of the 10 that were cut to obtain the black ebony, during so many years? Were those spared, and left there in the forest? Or did Taylor go back to salvage the wood left behind?

The daughter of my neighbour just recently came home from working with an aid organization in various countries in Africa. One of the uses of trees and lumber that some in her organization were trying to curb is the manufacture of charcoal for cooking from this wood. They are trying to get other sources of fuel for the people and impress on them to use the wood for manufacturing objects for sale, housing etc. and not burn it into brickettes...as it turns out it's not an easy task considering the dire situation many of the folks are dealing with.

I have no idea how often or even if the other 8 ebony trees are turned into charcoal but from her description of some of the material she saw going up in flames it sounded like that might be the case and I wouldn't be surprised...when your tummy is empty and you need to make a buck a few hardwood logs laying in the forest aren't going to bring much debate as to whether they should be saved or turned into a commodity that will bring in a couple pennies for some rice and beans.

I'm a little disappointed at the attitude of the bunch of naysayers spouting off negative drivel (pure speculation at that) concerning the reason behind this anouncement by Taylor. The little guys like you and I, individually, have very limited impact on the larger problems in our world but when somone of Taylors size and influence takes the lead real progress can be made. As my chinese father-in-law says: "sometimes it takes a big fish to breach the dam and get the river running again so the little fish can swim on."

Rather than trash talking Taylor why don't we get on board and support his initiative. Luthiers will have a better supply of quality materials, albeit more colorful, prices will reflect the improved supply of those materials and the folks working hard to find, for our use, don't forget, those materials in the first place may be able to support their families a little easier. Everyone wins by supporting a good idea, no-one wins by opposing and spreading negativity...

I think, no matter what Taylors "true" motivation is for making the video and deciding to use "colorful" ebony in place of or along with the jet black, that with the trickle down effect it is a very good thing over all. Of course he wants to make a good business decision and in this day and age the best business decisions often include long term protection of the environment and material supply...and that sounds positive to me.

[petermc61]

Hi Scot

Very well put. It is indeed a shame when negativity and cynicism takes hold. Any decision which better uses the world's critical resources (particularly scarce ones like ebony and rare rosewoods) is a good one in my view.

Peter

[tuk]

I'm a little disappointed at the attitude of the bunch of naysayers spouting off negative drivel (pure speculation at that) concerning the reason behind this anouncement by Taylor.

I'm afraid all the drivel is coming from bob taylor ..the hard facts are that Taylor is a business not an environmental program ..if you believe otherwise you have simply been deluded by marketing/PR ..pure speculation? ..I think not ..but maybe you can list exactly what you classify as speculation and we take it from there?

Rather than trash talking Taylor why don't we get on board and support his initiative. Everyone wins by supporting a good idea, no-one wins by opposing and spreading negativity...

because fundamentally it's nonsense ....'we should support businesses that pretend to protect the environment while really protecting their investments even if it turns out they have been the ones destroying said environment' ...do I really have to explain why this is bad idea?

I think, no matter what Taylors "true" motivation is

lol ..how can the true motivation not matter?

long term protection of the environment and material supply...and that sounds positive to me.

sounds like complete fantasy to me ..on my planet all the trees have been cut, give or take a few pockets here and there(even bob agrees) ...some basic arithmetic should tell you how this concludes ...and not so far into future

[tony soprano]

Scot - You surely didn’t expect everyone to join the Bob Taylor fan club. I thought the post was intended to stimulate some debate.

When Mr Taylor announced a “life changing event” I was waiting to see, what timber/material he was going to pave the way for us small fish to use instead of ebony. Alas, we are going to keep using ebony until it ceases to exist. When it has gone, then we may see the video that we should have been watching now.

I still say, there is no way you can tell what is inside a tree by looking at the stump. That comment is designed to pull the wool over the players eyes. I think most luthiers will not be fooled.

Negative, maybe….. but as others have pointed out, don’t pretend that it is anything other than a business decision which favors the company more than it helps the forest.