Self-Destructing Double Top Guitars??

[Windy City John]

I have had my eye on a Kenny Hill Signature Series double top guitar, but today had a scary conversation with a well-respected luthier (who shall remain nameless). I asked his opinion about double top guitars generally (not Kenny Hill's specifically). He told me something that I had not previously heard: that the thin nature of the two pieces of wood on a double top guitar, and the type of glue that is used to hold them to the nomex core makes them very fragile and non-durable. He essentially told me that the guitars sounded great, but were not likely to last for more than 2-5 years before the soundboard would go bad beyond repair. The message was that these guitars were fun to play, but were disposable, and not the kind of instrument that you purchase if you want to make an investment.

I am curious if anyone has had a double top self-destruct like this, or alternatively, has had a good long-term experience with them.

[petermc61]

I must say I am a bit sceptical - sounds more like contra-marketing!!

I am not that keen on the sound of double tops but have played a 2004 one by Michael Gee for some weeks earlier this year and there was no problem with the top. I would have thought it they were past it in 2-5 years this would be very well known on Delcamp given the vast number of players on this site.

Peter

[GuitarVlog]

I don't own one.

I've been on this forum for a while and haven't heard any stories of this happening with a double-top. I've heard more stories about imploding or cracking Bellucci guitars which are made the traditional way (but let's not turn this into yet another Bellucci topic).

[Cary W]

(but let's not turn this into yet another Bellucci topic).

Mods stand ready to intervene...

[esc]

Honestly speaking, to me this sounds like unfair marketing. The luthier who spoke to you of course builds solid top guitars. I am very skeptical about this, not because I have the experience to say the opposite of what he states but mainly because I never heard not even one story of a double top guitar "expiring" after few years. Even in this or other forums never and ever heard of somebody complaining about his double top guitar (built by an experienced luthier) that lost something after some time. Did you? So, the luthier who told you this story theoretically might even be right, who knows? But why don't you ask him how many double top guitars he handled in his life that had this kind of problem? I would be very curious to hear his answer. I personally built 6 years ago one double top guitar for my son. The guitar is still here with me. Sound was never pretty since the beginning, but the guitar is still here after all this time, it did not loose anything and it actually opened up a lot.
I would like to know stories of double top guitar owners who had this kind of problem, but I doubt that you will find any, because I suspect that these kind of guitars are as durable as solid top ones. They might even be more durable, don't forget that even solid top guitars might have problems if they are built too light.

[tanolonco]

Windy City John--if your name is derived from the city nicknamed The Windy City, Chicago, then is it fair to say you are from Chicago? Was the luthier Brune who lives in suburban Chicago? If so then there may be a case for what you have posted.

If it was Bellucci, then run and run fast and far so you do not become Man-gored.

[Alexandru Marian]

I'm a diehard traditionalist but I never heard about any DT exploding or losing sound after a few years. I did hear the sound stories about very thin lattices which might have a bit of truth in it but they are different animals. Duo Melis are using a pair of Wagners for a fair number of years now, touring heavily and playing the heck out of them and they still sound fine and are in 1 piece. If it is built right, it will be fine. On the other hand, both dt and thin tops are very delicate and harder to repair when it comes to impacts. Take good care of it and it will be fine.

[esc]

I did hear the sound stories about very thin lattices which might have a bit of truth in it but they are different animals. .

Alexandru, could you please tell me a little about this? How thin were they built? Were they sufficiently reinforced with the lattice? Are we in the order of less than 1 mm? What kind of guitars were they? Were the built by an experienced luthier or maybe just an experiment?
I am asking this because what I noticed in my life so far, is that SOME of the luthiers who choose to build with the newer technologies (lattice, nomex) SOMETIMES push to the limit when it comes to thinning the soundboard, thinking that the more they remove the higher volume you will get from the instrument. Was this the case you are mentioning?

[Marcus Dominelli]

I don't think that the type of guitar (tradtional, DT, or lattice) will dictate how long the guitar lasts per se.
A friend of mine had an early Damman double top, and he had it for 20 years. The sound continued to improve over the years, it needed no repair work, except action adjustments over the years and some french polish touch up.

OTOH, I've seen double tops that were very poorly made. One in particular (obviously no name mentioned) had visible nomex cells practically popping through the top, loose seams, and other structural issues. But as I say, these were not problems with design, but rather execution of the design. Sloppy workmanship can be found on any kind of guitar. I don't think double tops are necessarily going to be short lived.

However, if they do get damaged, the are more difficult to repair, and in some cases likely to be impractical.

Dominelli Guitars

[cliffbryant]

I've had a double top guitar (Randy Reynolds) since 2005 and it's still in pristine condition. No top (or other) issues whatsoever.....

[Alexandru Marian]

Esc, I don't have precise examples, it's just an often heard rumor. I tend to think it might have truth in it knowing that a very thin top is much much much more flexible, fragile and prone to fatigue than only a twice as thick traditional plate. The sandwich construction and the nomex offers incomparably more support for these thin sheets than even the tightest lattice.
On the other hand getting the glueup right is the tricky part. A poor job and the possibility for total catastrophe is huge. But put too much glue and the weight advantages are negated. That might be why there are plenty of DTs that offer nothing over a very good traditional guitar. Need to order from someone who really knows this stuff and is consistent (I heard rumors in the cg circles about some tiptop DT builders that still occasionally come up with total duds)
So I am not at all eager to try it a DT yet, despite the selling hype my guitars would get. If anything, a light wooden lattice on a not crazy thin top seems the most reasonable (and still predictable) system that I might try.

[riffmeister]

If self-destruction of DT's after 2-5 yrs was happening on a regular basis, I think we would have heard a lot more about it by now.

That is all.

[macmanue]

I heard Jim Redgate give a talk about his guitars (including double tops) at the 2010 AIGF. From memory, I believe he said something similar to this:

Double tops can lose structural integrity on the top, and can actually "collapse" and give a "sunken" look. He described this problem as purely aesthetic and in his experience, the guitars actually sounded better once this had happened. This is partly where he got the idea for his "wave" double top design. And by including a "wave" on his double tops it also acts as a way to increase the strength to weight ratio of the top. Just like with corrugated iron.

[George Crocket]

Hi Michael.

Welcome to the Delcamp classical guitar forum.

If you have not already done so, please have a look at our welcome page for more information about the forum and its rules, then please introduce yourself here for a proper welcome.

[Tom]

I bet this "well respected" luthier himself does not offer double top guitar and I can understand why he made such comment.

I have seen many self destruct single top normal bracing guitars but not a single case on a double top guitar.

The self destruct on a double top guitar could only happen if the luthier is not competent in making a good double top.