Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

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burtong
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by burtong » Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Fantastic.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:06 pm

Super job. I especially appreciate the way you articulate the phrases and group the ideas into big choir-like blocks. Apart from the 'tremolo' ending, much of it is in the quasi-antiphonal style and this came over nicely.
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by markodarko » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:19 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:much of it is in the quasi-antiphonal style
To the uneducated amongst us (me!), what does that mean, Stephen?
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:50 pm

markodarko wrote:..
To the uneducated amongst us (me!), what does that mean, Stephen?
Imagine a large body of singers divided into sub-choirs, separated by space in say, St Marks, Venice. Sometimes they sing essentially the same thing in one huge mass of sound. Sometimes they take turns, as blocks of sound, to sing either the same thing or question-answer phrases. Sometimes they seem to be bouncing off each other. Antiphon by definition originates in the Latin mass (full definitions available online) and I was using the word "antiphonal" in a looser sense (though it derives from the same practice as described) - "musical effects brought about by groups of performers being positioned in different places in the auditorium or on the platform - one group 'responding' to the other group(s)" (Collins Encyclopedia of Music).
The stereo effect doesn't really work for one performer. Unless they do an awful lot running about.

Much lute and vihuela repertoire imitates vocal polyphony and this effect is part of that. Fantasia del Quarto Tono of Luys Milan is perhaps a better example - at the beginning.
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by ArthurG » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:49 pm

Just heard this. Loved it!

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Steve Ganz
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by Steve Ganz » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:49 am

Super!
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by delayedMusician » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:54 am

That's one of the best performances I have heard. Excellent clarity, tone and subtlety, I can tell you are a seasoned performer. I too will learn some piece by this great master, Dowland :)

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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by Kenbobpdx » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:04 pm

Lovely playing of a beautiful piece I have never heard before.
In answer to this question, the tremolo does appear in the original though a lutenist in Dowland's time would probably not have used modern right hand guitar fingering to play it. The piece is found in only one manuscript, one of several compiled by a scribe called Mathew Holmes and now held by Cambridge University Library. The piece is unattributed, but Diana Poulton suggested on stylistic grounds that it is by Dowland.
Pogmoor - Thank you for providing such background on this piece. I am curious as to how a lutenist in Dowland's time would execute the tremolo. Would be with a finger flutter? Two fingers a la Ana Vidovic?

It just seems like it would be a bit of a challenge with the double courses on a lute.
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pogmoor
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by pogmoor » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:32 pm

Kenbobpdx wrote:Pogmoor - Thank you for providing such background on this piece. I am curious as to how a lutenist in Dowland's time would execute the tremolo.
You'd be better off asking one of the lutenist members of the forum but I think the tremolo would have been played p i p i ...

You need to bear in mind that at this time the lute was probably played with a 'thumb-under' technique, as illustrated in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh0X4U6h7DM. (You can also find this discussed in more detail a paper by Bruce MacEvoy by searching for 'The Renaissance Thumb-Under Lute Technique'.)

During the 17th century a 'thumb-out' technique developed which became much more the norm for baroque lute players - and in fact I have seen it suggested that Dowland was on the cusp of this development and may have changed his technique as he got older. However I'm not sure what the evidence is for this!
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by markodarko » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:36 pm

pogmoor wrote:You need to bear in mind that at this time the lute was probably played with a 'thumb-under' technique, as illustrated in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh0X4U6h7DM.
Holy bajollies. That looks crazy. I guess they must have been keeping their finger and thumb quite taught and moving their wrist back and forth?
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pogmoor
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by pogmoor » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:53 pm

markodarko wrote:Holy bajollies. That looks crazy. I guess they must have been keeping their finger and thumb quite taught and moving their wrist back and forth?
I don't think so. The lute has lower tension strings than the guitar and I think the playing hand is held in a relaxed position.
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MartinCogg
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by MartinCogg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:19 pm

That is nicely played indeed - inspired me to give it a go... looked at the Scheit edition,
I'm minded it's somewhat easier to play from tablature, specially considering 3rd = F# tuning.

It's in the Matthew Holmes Dd. 9.33, (to be precise Pogmoor) aroundabout folios 44-45 and in the Poulton numbering it's P73.

Looks like the start of it here - ...

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-DD-00009-00033/88



Originally set for 7 course lute. I copied it out for my lute today, then again for 6 strings in my own very neat tablature -
maybe I'll plop the pdf on delcamp once I've checked for mistakes.
Last edited by MartinCogg on Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by pogmoor » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:51 pm

MartinCogg wrote:It's in the Matthew Holmes Dd. 9.33, (to be precise Pogmoor) folios 44-45 and in the Poulton numbering it's P73.

Looks like the start of it here -

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-DD-00009-00033/86
Indeed; and it illustrates the fact that Cambridge University Library have recently put all the Mathew Holmes lute books online. That's several hundred pieces of music from the 16th century all written in a clear hand in French lute tablature. It's an absolute gold mine for lutenists and for guitarists willing to take the time to transcribe the music as much of it remains unexplored.
Eric from GuitarLoot
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MartinCogg
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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by MartinCogg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:59 pm

pogmoor wrote:
Indeed; and it illustrates the fact that Cambridge University Library have recently put all the Mathew Holmes lute books online. That's several hundred pieces of music from the 16th century all written in a clear hand in French lute tablature. It's an absolute gold mine for lutenists and for guitarists willing to take the time to transcribe the music as much of it remains unexplored.
You quoted me too quick there pogmoor - my first link was a leaf before... now corrected.

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Re: Dowland, John - Tremolo Fancy

Post by therebelartist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:49 pm

fabulous and very beautifully played. :merci: :bravo:
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