[PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

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Frank Nordberg

[PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby Frank Nordberg » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:28 pm

Here's a transcripiton of the entire suite.
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David Belcher
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby David Belcher » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:19 pm

Thanks Frank! This is an excellent transcription. I just sat down and played through the whole suite. Your transcription is very easy to play (my first time in A!) and the Low D 6 adds a really nice dimension as well. The only correction as far as I can see (without comparison to the Urtext or other transcriptions yet) is the very last measure of the A section in the Gigue (right at the repeat bars). If I'm not mistaken, the G natural from the previous measure should carry forward to this measure as well--so it should be an Em rather than EMAJ chord: E, B, G(natural), E.

I would also change some of the resolutions you have chosen. For instance, in the last measure of the A section in the Allemande (again just at the repeat bars, top of p. 5), you resolve the D# from the previous measure to the E an octave down. Is that how Bach has it in the Urtext? Typically, when I came to those sections I played an octave so the note would resolve at its own octave and also provide the support of the bass...but that may be a performance decision. Interested in your thoughts on that.

I'm also interested in where you would put slurs. I added my own as I played, but I think that slurs could really open up some of the passages both musically and for performance.

Finally, you utilize campanella (cross-string) fingerings quite a bit in the first movement to great effect. Did you consider/experiment using such fingerings (especially using fingered/open-string cross string movement in passages) in some of the other movements, or did you avoid that so as to closer mimic the cello?

Again, very nice work and thanks for sharing! I may work on a recording of your version of the suite to post here soon!

Peace,

dave b

Frank Nordberg

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby Frank Nordberg » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:58 pm

David Belcher wrote:Thanks Frank! This is an excellent transcription.


Thanks.

I've begun to wonder if I really should claim transcriber credits for it though. An important point I forgot to mention is that this isn't an adaption in the regular sense but a direct note-by-note translation. All I've done on purpose is to change the key and add fingering and tablature. Any other deviations from the original cello version are either typos or differences between different cello editions.

No, wait! I also removed all the bows from the original. Not sure what to do about them to be honest. The three surviving 18th century manuscripts all have different bows and besides, the phrasing and stroke bows in a cello piece can't really be directly translated into guitar slurs.

I do not consider this transcription as the "right" way to play the suite. It's certainly not how a 18th century lutenist would have done it and it's probably not even how I would have done it. I consider it as a starting point for any guiatrist experienced enough to handle a work of this size at all to create his/her personal interpretation. That being said, I am amazed how well the suite in this raw form fits the guitar. It's so easy it's practically sight reading for anybody with the stamina to play for 15+ minutes.

David Belcher wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the G natural from the previous measure should carry forward to this measure as well--so it should be an Em rather than EMAJ chord: E, B, G(natural), E.


That makes sense, but it's not supported in any of the sources. It is of course possible that the reason why neither Anna Magdalena Bach nor Johann Peter Kellner nor anon. included a natural there is that they took it for granted. This is a common problem when editing music that only survives as manuscripts: what did the original copyist leave out simply because he or she didn't think it was necessary to mention?

In this particular case either solution would be reasonably consistent with what we currently know about 18th century music styles so I guess i'ts a question of taste rather than facts.

David Belcher wrote:I would also change some of the resolutions you have chosen. For instance, in the last measure of the A section in the Allemande (again just at the repeat bars, top of p. 5), you resolve the D# from the previous measure to the E an octave down. Is that how Bach has it in the Urtext?


Don't know about the urtext edition but yes, it is how it's written in all three sources and in all modern editions I've checked. This is where the problems of my true-to-the-original approach really becomes apparent.

David Belcher wrote:Typically, when I came to those sections I played an octave so the note would resolve at its own octave and also provide the support of the bass...but that may be a performance decision. Interested in your thoughts on that.


You could also just hold that d# until it is resolved in the right octave later in the bar - possibly with some ornament to really empasize the point. Either solution would be perfectly in style. I guess this is where the advantages of my true-to-the-original approach becomes apparent. It allows the performer to make such decisions himself/herself. :wink:

David Belcher wrote:I'm also interested in where you would put slurs. I added my own as I played


Please feel free to do so!

David Belcher wrote:Finally, you utilize campanella (cross-string) fingerings quite a bit in the first movement to great effect. Did you consider/experiment using such fingerings


I never though of that. The reason why I included the campanella effect in the prelude is simply that it is how that particular passage is written in all three source manuscripts.

David Belcher wrote:I may work on a recording of your version of the suite to post here soon!


I'd love to hear that.

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David Belcher
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby David Belcher » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:30 pm

Thanks, Frank! An excellent and informative reply. I have been too busy yet to sit down with the urtext, but this is really helpful. I just wanted to reiterate that what you have done here is nonetheless a great accomplishment--even if not a "transcription" per se, it translates so well to the guitar, as you said, I think that it's a very helpful contribution to the guitar repertoire. Congrats!

dave b

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elindley
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby elindley » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:01 pm

I also want to thank you. If it isn't too much trouble, could you make a version without the tab notation available? ... also without the right hand fingering, to provide a cleaner version for those of us who find those markings distracting. Again, thanks for your hard work. -- Ed
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Frank Nordberg

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby Frank Nordberg » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:44 pm

elindley wrote:If it isn't too much trouble, could you make a version without the tab notation available? ... also without the right hand fingering, to provide a cleaner version for those of us who find those markings distracting.


Your wish is my command, sir!
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elindley
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby elindley » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:48 pm

Thank you! That was so quick and just what I wanted. Now to work. -- Ed
English | Fresno, California | Kenny Hill Signature Double Top | La Bella 2001 Concert Series Extra Hard Tension
"Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them." -- Richard Strauss

Tedi

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby Tedi » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:27 am

Dear Frank, Thank you for sharing. I use your transcription. I am playing this piece now. I like this tune a lot.[*]

Tedi

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007 (trans.: Nordberg)

Postby Tedi » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:32 am

I am playing the Minuet 1 and 2.

AlexRaven
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby AlexRaven » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:38 am

I get used to John Duarte transcription which in D major. Of course, your arrangement is easily to play. Unfortunately, I haven't Bach cello original work but in Duarte version I see many bass notes that does not appear in your work . Moreover , as I remember, Bach original is in G major. So what is the reason for A major?
Alex Raven
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Frank Nordberg

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby Frank Nordberg » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:37 am

Tedi wrote:Dear Frank, Thank you for sharing. I use your transcription. I am playing this piece now. I like this tune a lot.[*]


Glad to hear that! :)

AlexRaven wrote:Of course, your arrangement is easily to play.


Thanks. That was one of the purposes of the transcription.

AlexRaven wrote:Unfortunately, I haven't Bach cello original work


You can find facsimiles of all three surviving manuscripts at IMSLP:
http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Cello_Suites,_BWV_1007-1012_%28Bach,_Johann_Sebastian%29

AlexRaven wrote:but in Duarte version I see many bass notes that does not appear in your work.


I haven't seen Jack's arrangement but it is (and was even at Bach's time) common practice to add extra bass and chord notes when re-arranging music from a melodic instrument (flute, violin, cello etc.) to a chordal instrument (lute, guitar, keyboard etc.).
I guess that was what I intended to do too but in the end I just didn't see any need for it. The suite sounds well enough on the guitar as it is. So I followed the good ol' rule "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" and ended up with a direct note-by-note transcription with no notes added, removed or changed.

AlexRaven wrote:Moreover , as I remember, Bach original is in G major. So what is the reason for A major?


It's a while since I did this transcription so I don't remember exactly the thought process that led to that particular key. I was doing a transcription of the BWV 999 lute/keyboard prelude at aproximately the same time though and that may have been where I got the idea. (As I'm sure you know, BWV 999 is originally in C minor but on the guitar it's usually played in D minor).
The most obvious reason why I stuck to that particular key change is of course that it fits so well. With a dropped D tuning, the two lowest strings on the guitar are D and A, one note above the two lowest strings on the cello. The second string on the guitar is a B, one note above the first string of the cello. Transposing one note up means you retain three of the four open strings of the original and that, of course, tends to simplify everything a lot. There also the matter of range. With dropped D tuning the guitar has a range that starts one note above the cello's and the effective span of both instruments are quite similar. Transposing cello music one note up means you get to use the full range of the guitar in the most effective way.

This is not really relevant in this context but both Jack's D major and my A major transposition are reasonably "authentic", that is both key changes are ones an early 18th C. musician might have made to adapt a work for a different instrument.

AlexRaven
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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby AlexRaven » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:30 pm

I have Luis Alvarez transcription In A major. Also there is Serge Robert in D. If you can find Alvarez you can compare it's version with yours. At first sight these two are practically the same (except for additional bass notes).
Alex Raven
Is there - is there balm in Gilead? - tell me - tell me, I implore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore

Tedi

Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby Tedi » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:03 pm

I listend to JW recording of BWV 1007. He adds base notes as well. Listenging to cello recording there are movements that contain mostly melody lines, so I like the original better, means without adding bases. The thing I envy is the tone of the cello. One note contains overtone that is so beautiful. It seems easy to produce a note on the guitar when comparing to violoncello.

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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby AlexRaven » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:18 am

The point of additional basses or chords in arrangement is not that simple. Frank thinks that Duarte version is quite authentic but if we are strictly governed by exact correspondence to original piece then we have not add notes which is not in original. But if we deal with composition which was written for another instrument (like cello, flute, etc.) then, in my opinion, we can place additional basses and chords. I have Bach flute solo sonata arrangement without additional basses and as guitar piece this composition does not sound quite good for me. I think these matters need serious discussion and when I will have enough time I'll try to open a new topic which will be concern with additional items in arrangements.
Alex Raven
Is there - is there balm in Gilead? - tell me - tell me, I implore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore

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Re: [PDF] Bach, J. S.; Suite BWV 1007

Postby kvg » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:44 pm

Thank you very much for sharing, Frank! I will have a close look at this - and really looks forward to it! :)


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