Weiss on eleven strings

Discussion of all aspects of multi-string guitars, namely those with 7 or more strings.
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Alain Cloutier
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Alain Cloutier » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:27 pm

spanishguitarmusic wrote::bravo: Amazing! Very nice sounding on that eleven string guitar. I love that early music. :merci: for posting this video!
:merci: :bye:

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spanishguitarmusic
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:38 pm

Alain Cloutier wrote:
spanishguitarmusic wrote::bravo: Amazing! Very nice sounding on that eleven string guitar. I love that early music. :merci: for posting this video!
:merci: :bye:
You are welcome, Alain! :bye:

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attila57
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:32 pm

Hello Alain,
Weiss' music is great for multistring guitars - I'm just playing some pieces from the London MS on my 10-string instrument.
Just like you, I'm using baroque tuning, too, a modified version to enable me to play the low basses, too. The majority ow Weiss pieces go down as low as A' - on an 11-string lute or guitar one must play the A' and B' notes an octave higher. (That's what I do when I play my lute - it has only 11 strings.)

It's strange that guitarists don't think of baroque tuning when they play baroque music. There'd be no need for transcription or any fuss if they learned to read baroque lute tab. True, one or more extra strings come handy...
:merci: :bravo:
Attila
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

Altophile
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Altophile » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:32 am

attila57 wrote:Hello Alain,
Weiss' music is great for multistring guitars - I'm just playing some pieces from the London MS on my 10-string instrument.
Just like you, I'm using baroque tuning, too, a modified version to enable me to play the low basses, too. The majority ow Weiss pieces go down as low as A' - on an 11-string lute or guitar one must play the A' and B' notes an octave higher. (That's what I do when I play my lute - it has only 11 strings.)

It's strange that guitarists don't think of baroque tuning when they play baroque music. There'd be no need for transcription or any fuss if they learned to read baroque lute tab. True, one or more extra strings come handy...
:merci: :bravo:
Attila
Well, I tried D Minor tuning with a six and and eight string, and it didn't really help. To make Weiss more playable you really need the extra bass strings, regardless what tuning you opt for, IMO.

~Sean

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attila57
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:57 pm

I don't agree. 7 is just enough. I have a 7-string guitar tuned to d minor. Occasionally I need to tune up or down a string, but it's OK for Weiss. Of course, one has to learn to stretch and economize, but a 10-stringed instrument becomes a piece of cake afterwards. I've actually made quite a few edited versions for 7 and 10 strings, too.
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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attila57
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:35 pm

[quote="Altophile]
Well, I tried D Minor tuning with a six and and eight string, and it didn't really help. To make Weiss more playable you really need the extra bass strings, regardless what tuning you opt for, IMO.

~Sean
Hi Sean,

See the previous post.

Attila
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Altophile » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:43 pm

attila57 wrote:I don't agree. 7 is just enough. I have a 7-string guitar tuned to d minor. Occasionally I need to tune up or down a string, but it's OK for Weiss. Of course, one has to learn to stretch and economize, but a 10-stringed instrument becomes a piece of cake afterwards. I've actually made quite a few edited versions for 7 and 10 strings, too.
I suspect that there are quite a few multi-string guitarists who would disagree with you. A seven-string guitar just doesn't give you enough bass strings, and so you have to transpose half the bass notes up an octave (or two!), and now rather than playing them open, which allows you to focus on the melody/harmony, etc., with your left hand, as Weiss intended, you have to finger most of them, often in ways that involve musical sacrifice or uncomfortable stretches that someone like me with small hands just can't accommodate.

I'm glad you're satisfied with the results you're getting, but, speaking for myself, D Minor turning doesn't help at all without the extra bass strings.

~Sean

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:55 pm

Altophile wrote:
attila57 wrote:I don't agree. 7 is just enough. I have a 7-string guitar tuned to d minor. Occasionally I need to tune up or down a string, but it's OK for Weiss. Of course, one has to learn to stretch and economize, but a 10-stringed instrument becomes a piece of cake afterwards. I've actually made quite a few edited versions for 7 and 10 strings, too.
I suspect that there are quite a few multi-string guitarists who would disagree with you. A seven-string guitar just doesn't give you enough bass strings, and so you have to transpose half the bass notes up an octave (or two!), and now rather than playing them open, which allows you to focus on the melody/harmony, etc., with your left hand, as Weiss intended, you have to finger most of them, often in ways that involve musical sacrifice.

I'm glad you're satisfied with the results you're getting, but, speaking for myself, D Minor turning doesn't help at all without the extra bass strings.

~Sean
OK, I know what you mean exactly, and in a way I agree. Still, you can do with only D & G (or A) as basses and the rest (5 strings) as trebles. If you want the original sound, of course you'll need 13 or 11 strings, or rather courses. But if you happen to have a 7-string guitar, you can get much better approximation of the original if you tune it to D minor instead of BEAdgae', because at least the trebles will sound the way they were intended to, and you'll have the advantage of the availability of the original tab versions. You can get used to reading the basses very quickly and converting them to the 2 bass strings in your mind quickly, too.

Of course, I'm happier with the music I can get by a 10-string guitar or a lute.

Attila
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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Alain Cloutier
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Alain Cloutier » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:26 pm

Altophile wrote:
attila57 wrote:I don't agree. 7 is just enough. I have a 7-string guitar tuned to d minor. Occasionally I need to tune up or down a string, but it's OK for Weiss. Of course, one has to learn to stretch and economize, but a 10-stringed instrument becomes a piece of cake afterwards. I've actually made quite a few edited versions for 7 and 10 strings, too.
I suspect that there are quite a few multi-string guitarists who would disagree with you. A seven-string guitar just doesn't give you enough bass strings, and so you have to transpose half the bass notes up an octave (or two!), and now rather than playing them open, which allows you to focus on the melody/harmony, etc., with your left hand, as Weiss intended, you have to finger most of them, often in ways that involve musical sacrifice or uncomfortable stretches that someone like me with small hands just can't accommodate.

I'm glad you're satisfied with the results you're getting, but, speaking for myself, D Minor turning doesn't help at all without the extra bass strings.

~Sean
+1 Sean

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Altophile » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:07 pm

attila57 wrote:
Altophile wrote:
attila57 wrote: OK, I know what you mean exactly, and in a way I agree. Still, you can do with only D & G (or A) as basses and the rest (5 strings) as trebles. If you want the original sound, of course you'll need 13 or 11 strings, or rather courses. But if you happen to have a 7-string guitar, you can get much better approximation of the original if you tune it to D minor instead of BEAdgae', because at least the trebles will sound the way they were intended to, and you'll have the advantage of the availability of the original tab versions. You can get used to reading the basses very quickly and converting them to the 2 bass strings in your mind quickly, too.

Of course, I'm happier with the music I can get by a 10-string guitar or a lute.

Attila
Well, I would agree that seven strings certainly beats six when it comes to trying to arrange Weiss. However, in my experience at least, even with the D Minor tuning, you still don't benefit vis a vis easier fingerings, because rather than playing the basses open, you have to finger them, which means that you're using the higher bass strings to do the work of the lower bass strings, thus rendering them largely unavailable for use as Weiss would have used them.

I'm happy to learn something new, though, so if you would like to upload one or two of your D Minor arrangements, I'll give them a try and see how well they work. The pieces I tried to play with D Minor tuning just didn't work well at all for me.

~Sean

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by soltirefa » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:18 pm

There are times when Weiss can sound amazing on six strings. You really need to take it on a case by case basis. Sometimes there can be a more focused sound without so many basses. I think even Weiss would be blown away. Check out this guy's Sonata No. 11 on 6-string.

https://youtu.be/jH5pP3XcqFY

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Altophile » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:16 pm

soltirefa wrote:There are times when Weiss can sound amazing on six strings. You really need to take it on a case by case basis. Sometimes there can be a more focused sound without so many basses. I think even Weiss would be blown away. Check out this guy's Sonata No. 11 on 6-string.

https://youtu.be/jH5pP3XcqFY
I agree completely here, and didn't mean to suggest that some of Weiss' music can't sound excellent on a six string guitar. Some of my favorite performances of certain pieces are on a six string!

For example, Roberto Aussel renders the L'infidele Suite so well that I'd rather listen to him play it than any lutenist!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2OUH_j7B7E

Also, Christopher Parkening's performance of the famous Passacaglia has never been equaled in my experience, regardless of the instrument used:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ47nA5V38s

I've been speaking solely to the notion that D Minor tuning makes the pieces more playable on a seven string guitar, not on the quality of the result that can be achieved by good performers on six, seven, or eight string guitars (irrespective of tuning).

~Sean

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:51 pm

soltirefa wrote:There are times when Weiss can sound amazing on six strings. You really need to take it on a case by case basis. Sometimes there can be a more focused sound without so many basses. I think even Weiss would be blown away. Check out this guy's Sonata No. 11 on 6-string.

https://youtu.be/jH5pP3XcqFY
You have a good point here. I actually like to have more control over the length of the basses than what I can get playing a lute. The sound is definitely more focused that way. Especially if I listen for a long time, it helps focus my attention, too.

Attila
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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attila57
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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by attila57 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:13 pm

Altophile wrote:
I'm happy to learn something new, though, so if you would like to upload one or two of your D Minor arrangements, I'll give them a try and see how well they work. The pieces I tried to play with D Minor tuning just didn't work well at all for me.

~Sean
I've just uploaded a 7-string Prelude arrangement to the Our scores... Our tabulatures section. As you will see, I'm using baroque lute tab. Because of the baroque d-minor tuning I was able to keep the trebles as in the original version, whereas I had to modify the bass layout to arrange the basses for the existing two bass strings (D & G). It makes the whole process very fast and rewarding, without the need of changing all the fingerings in the whole range.

Attila
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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Re: Weiss on eleven strings

Post by Altophile » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:36 pm

attila57 wrote:
Altophile wrote:
I'm happy to learn something new, though, so if you would like to upload one or two of your D Minor arrangements, I'll give them a try and see how well they work. The pieces I tried to play with D Minor tuning just didn't work well at all for me.

~Sean
I've just uploaded a 7-string Prelude arrangement to the Our scores... Our tabulatures section. As you will see, I'm using baroque lute tab. Because of the baroque d-minor tuning I was able to keep the trebles as in the original version, whereas I had to modify the bass layout to arrange the basses for the existing two bass strings (D & G). It makes the whole process very fast and rewarding, without the need of changing all the fingerings in the whole range.

Attila
Thank you for that, I'll have a look and give this one a try.

Have you tried this approach on the L'infidele suite, the G Minor Ciacona, the famous Passacaglia, or the two Tombeau? I consider these to be Weiss' finest works (along with a few others), and if there's a way to make them easier to perform, I'm all ears:-)

~Sean

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