Diatonic Scales by Segovia (Beyond 12th fret!!!!)

[syrinx666pan]

This book by the Maestro is a fascinating book for practicing scales.
But I'm having difficulty hitting notes which are beyond the twelfth fret, and I'm having trouble especially when reaching the [i]la[/i] on the eighteenth fret with my finger 4. How am i going to position my left arm. What are the rules? and how should I execute my left hand beyond the twelfth fret?

[paulcroft]

Try your third.

[jewlz24]

well, three things that might help here.

1)a big monkey left hand, so that you can reach with your pinky or ring finger while your left hand thumb is still behind the heal of the neck.
2)A guitar with a cutaway that allows easy access.
3)or a guitar with a elevated fret board like my Borobia guitar

My guitar instructor John McCrea told me that Parkening would use the first technique. Which is cool because you don't have to reestablish your thumb on the back of the neck when you change position. but that doesn't help me I'm an average Filipino. Rey De la Torre told my instructor that that you can ride the bottom edge of the fretboard with your left thumb to stay balance and in contact with the neck. That's also where elevated fret boards come in handy.

hope that was helpful.

[KevinCollins]

Rey told me that, too, but, for the most part, his thumb remained behind the neck.

I knew a wonderful cellist who played guitar. The thought nothing of placing the side of the thumb on the fretboard. It is all about what you're used to.

I'm having difficulty hitting notes which are beyond the twelfth fret

It takes years to play on the body, syrinx. I would start with the G-scale. And A-minor, maybe.

The problem is the thumb, keeping it behind the neck. The tip of the first finger stands up, 2, 3, & 4 reach.

Also, try Ode to Joy in the twelfth position. This seems silly but you will be surprised by the effect.

And then, practice -- two times half-speed, one time full-speed. Full-speed would be slow, so half-speed would be unbearably slow. Good luck.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Robert Phillips]

A good technique is to bend a bit at the hips (staying in your seat) and reach around from beneath with the left arm while supporting the hand with the thumb along the bottom edge of the fretboard (ala Rey de la Torre) and with the heel of the hand leaning lightly on the body of the guitar.

[Gil_Wade]

I learned how by working with the Segovia scales until they sounded as good above the 12th fret as below it. You definitely need to release the thumb and reach around the body of the guitar. Sometimes I shift my guitar while in the upper range where the head is higher than it usually is when I'm playing in the lower positions. This is especially true for parts of Gymnopedie #1. I've been to several master classes where the teachers claimed that most people depend too much on their (left) thumb to hold the strings down. I know that there are other discussions on this forum about using your arm strength rather than your thumb. Using your thumb too much will slow you down. They both recommended doing scales without using the thumb whatsoever in order to train your arm in the proper way. This is much easier to do in the upper positions than the lower positions. If you are not dependent on your thumb then moving above the 12th fret becomes a lot easier.

Gil

[ArrJayBee]

I was about to start a topic on this but of course I wanted to search the forums and see. I will try the suggestions here. I am having trouble with the Segovia A Minor Scale with the notes about the 15th fret.

When I reach for them my wrist feels uncomfortably bent. I would like to get a cutaway classical guitar... if you have a cutaway did you notice a change in the tone due to the change in the shape??

Thanks.

[robin loops]

Or just do what I do and skip the last octave altogether. Considering that very few pieces of music utilize this section of the fretboard I find it counterproductive to spend half the time I practice scales, up in this region with a different hand position than I will usually be using when actually playing music. I think Segovia must have been on medication when he wrote these out... I only say this because crack was not so common at the time LOL...

As far as cutaways, I do not know from personal experience but they say that the upper bout has little to do with the overall sound but the biggest drawback to a cutaway guitar is that they are usually crossover guitars that have other variations that do affect the sound.

Some people like the raised fretboards for playing in higher positions but again I think it's just as viable an option to skip the higher octave in the scales altogether unless you plan on playing songs in these positions. As far as not being dependent on the thumb, I agree with that and even apply this to the scales in lower positions as well. Helps me avoid playing with too much pressure when playing pieces. Helps the mind learn how little pressure is needed so to speak...

[Jeffrey.C]

Drop your left shoulder a little so you can play in those higher positions.

You can see guys like Denis Azabagic, John Williams, Pavel Steidl, Ana Vidovic, Marco Tamayo, Eliot Fisk etc do it when they have to play in the higher positions.

[ArrJayBee]

robin loops,
Skipping the last octave was tempting, as you pointed out, very few pieces are utilizing that section of the fret board, but I really like the challenge of trying to learn the scales in the traditional way.
Thanks for the advice on the cutaway guitar.

Jeffrey C,
I dropped my left shoulder when accessing those frets and it was problem solved, I do not know why I did not think to do this. Probably because I try hard to keep the proper posture going the whole time, but this really did the trick thank you.

[robin loops]

I think that Segovia included these higher octaves to help with development of changing posture to overcome difficulties (as opposed to my on drugs theory ). If you get really adept at playing in the higher register you could also tackle transcribing some piano pieces or other instruments. I have a book a 24 Paganini Caprices that has scale runs in several octaves that get way way up there and these could also be played straight without transcribing for the guitar. Personally I find playing the guitar in the lower registers challenging enough as it is to attempt such an ambitious endeavor (for the time being anyway).

[ArrJayBee]

robin loops,
Your drugs theory was interesting, ha! I have seen alot of posts on these boards at the uselessness of the scales, but so far, I am having a good time with them, especially with developing my a-m/m-a strokes.
I am curious about the 24 Paganini Caprices you mentioned and will have to look at those. Although I already have Carcassi's OP 60 staring from my music stand and I am only 3 pieces in.

My problem is my ambition is greater than the combination of time and current abilities so I will continue digging away! I am glad that I decided to devote myself to CG again, now if my newly grown nails would co-operate.

Question: When playing above the 12th fret, do you have issues with getting a good tone? When I am playing the a-minor segovia scale once I get past the 12th fret on the e string I notice my volume and tone goes down. Not sure if this is a nail problem or not. Any insight is helpful!

[Jeffrey.C]

It is generally more difficult to get a good tone the higher you go because there's less string vibrating.

Finger placement and how you strike the string are the two main things that contribute to the perceived 'loss of volume and tone' many players get when playing in the higher positions. It could be you or the guitar, but for now, work on good finger placement and getting the motions to feel comfortable/natural. Don't try to play loud just yet, get used to how playing in the higher positions feel, your shoulders and hands should be relaxed and you should feel great in the chair!

[robin loops]

About playing loud. I noticed at some point that I could play much better when my roommates were asleep. Now I try to play a little softer at all times. Not only does this allow me to play with more relaxation in the hands it helps compensate when paying in higher positions. Meaning I get an overall better balance of tone and volume across the fret board. It also makes getting intensity from more volume much easier. Another side benefit is that it seems to also allow for a greater maximum volume when I do dig in.

[Jeffrey.C]

About playing loud. I noticed at some point that I could play much better when my roommates were asleep. Now I try to play a little softer at all times. Not only does this allow me to play with more relaxation in the hands it helps compensate when paying in higher positions. Meaning I get an overall better balance of tone and volume across the fret board. It also makes getting intensity from more volume much easier. Another side benefit is that it seems to also allow for a greater maximum volume when I do dig in.

That's exactly what you should be going for! What you're getting isn't necessarily 'more volume' per se, but rather, a greater resonance and projection from good timing and proper striking of the string which comes from the gravity of your arm/fingers and you can get more and more the more you relax!