Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

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Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:27 am

Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar
Arranged by Richard F. Sayage.
Published by Edition Peters (PE.P68057).
ISBN M-3007-0023-6. With introductory text, performance notes, black & white photos and fingerings. Baroque. 9x12 inches.
The complete two-part inventions, BWV 772-786, freely transcribed for guitar

Anyone tried this? Non-solo Bach should be hard to transcribe for guitar: how does this particular attempt sound?
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Praeludium » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:06 am

http://www.deezer.com/listen-547035
http://www.deezer.com/listen-547045

It looks really difficult.

here

Hmm. It sounds like the guitarist have some great difficults (and a poor sound). Yet it may works, even if the .mp3 of the hardiest inventions are in fact .midi files..


edit : uh ? use "quote" to see the url.
Cette dernière trahison m'a été également reprochée. Ce que je trouve à répondre, c'est:"merde aux conventions!"

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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:28 pm

Hi, NewModder, thanks for responding.
NewModder wrote:http://www.deezer.com/listen-547035
http://www.deezer.com/listen-547045
These two links landed me on some Gould page. But I know how it sounds on the keyboard, I have the Gould CD, and in fact I played some of the inventions myself when I was a kid. That is, actually, the reason I'm so curious about a guitar transcription, 'cause they don't seem the kind of music that, shall we say, lends itself to transcribing for guitar.
It looks really difficult.
Looks where, on Gould records? He plays a lot of them too fast (for example, the A minor one)... but yeah, in general, that, like I said, was my point: they should be very hard to play on guitar because of two completely independent voices.
This is a bad URL. I guess it's one of those cases where our dear hosts don't like something about the site... we will not get into it though ;-) ;-) . Could you PM me this url?
Hmm. It sounds like the guitarist have some great difficults (and a poor sound). Yet it may works, even if the .mp3 of the hardiest inventions are in fact .midi files..
Was it at the extirpated link? Where is this struggling guitarist you're talking about?
edit : uh ? use "quote" to see the url.
?
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Praeludium » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:35 pm

It's the second link when you type "sayage bach transcription" in google.us. The url ends with .../photos.html.
I was tlaking about the .mp3 in the page that I gave, yes.

Sorry for the disgression with Gould, it's just that they seemed to be unplayable, and the words "freely transcribed" frightened me.
Cette dernière trahison m'a été également reprochée. Ce que je trouve à répondre, c'est:"merde aux conventions!"

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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:39 am

NewModder wrote:It's the second link when you type "sayage bach transcription" in google.us. The url ends with .../photos.html.
Ha! :D Got it. What a great site, thanks a lot, NewModder.

Sorry for the disgression with Gould, it's just that they seemed to be unplayable, and the words "freely transcribed" frightened me.
Yeah, I hear you. But with those pictures one can see just how "freely" it is compared with the originals. A good find, very helpul. Thanks again!

:bravo:
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Jeff Kross » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:43 pm

Not quite answering the original question, but some 25-plus years ago I got a volume called "Bach Inventions for Guitar Duet," edited and fingered by Jerry Willard, containing "the complete set of 15 inventions carefully arranged for two guitars, with notes on the transcriptions and authentice ornamentation," according to the cover text. I've recently started playing some of these with a friend and they're quite nice, though I have no idea how faithful they are to the originals. I just checked on that website named after the Brazilian river and see the text still is available, now including CDs for demonstration purposes.
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:14 pm

Jeff Kross wrote:Not quite answering the original question, but some 25-plus years ago I got a volume called "Bach Inventions for Guitar Duet," edited and fingered by Jerry Willard
Hi, Jeff, thanks for the info. Yeah, I think I know this book -- it's Ariel Publications, isn't it? I have their Bach Lute Suites. Pretty good book, the publisher looks solid. I remember buying this book in a store about... well, yeah, it's gotta be about 20 years ago! Scary. But back to Inventions: yes, for two guitars this will work fine (Bach's Inventions are two-voice compositions). But to play them on one guitar must be a huge challenge ('cause these voices aren't really close to each other and on guitar you have half the number of hands compared with piano :-) ).
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mark004 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:53 pm

Mad Hatter wrote: ('cause these voices aren't really close to each other and on guitar you have half the number of hands compared with piano :-) ).

Curse these jammy pianists and their four hands!
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Jeff Kross » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:54 pm

Yes, Mr. Hatter, it is Ariel publications, and they appear to be in business still. But forgive me: as an attorney, I'm only trained to read the fine print, and thus overlooked those big honking letters that clearly stated 'FOR SOLO GUITAR"! Agreed, I believe it would be difficult to play two contrapuntal lines with only two meager hands.
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:20 pm

Jeff Kross wrote: [...] But forgive me: as an attorney, I'm only trained to read the fine print, and thus overlooked those big honking letters that clearly stated 'FOR SOLO GUITAR"! [...]
OK, I forgive you! Go and sin no more. :-)
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Jeremiah Lawson » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:05 pm

Two independent lines (that are not even always that independent) would be tough but still practical as long as the arrangement consolidates octave separation. I would expect mammoth amounts of transposition into new keys. Yours truly would prefer a two-part invention in actual B flat but it's more considerate of the intent of the original work to have it in the easiest guitar keys possible. In this case the pedagogical purpose of the orignal would dictate transposition if it were written for guitar.
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:21 am

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:Two independent lines (that are not even always that independent) would be tough
Yeah. I checked this guy's site where he lets you download MP3s of those pieces, and what do you think? I thought he played his transcriptions, but he actually concocted midi versions! :-) Well, they're very fluid of course ;-), except he's not playing them on the guitar... so, yes, you're quite right -- at least some of those pieces look impossible. Take, for example, the No.13 (A min): two lines, equally motoric and totally concurrent, not a chordal piece. Well, how would you play two concurrent fluid parts? The problem is not that they're too far apart, but that on the piano you have two near identical hands. On guitar you don't. So you'd play the top line with imac, but what about the formerly left hand? You'd have to do with your thumb what the rest of your fingers do, and that would have to be magically fast plucking, even if you play it at a half of Gould's speed -- and that's just the right hand... btw, his transcription (for that piece) keeps the key. Well, A min is nothing evil for quitar.
Yours truly would prefer a two-part invention in actual B flat but
What do you mean? Why B flat? Only one of them is in B flat, out of what, fifteen? Or do you mean you'd like them in B flat? Are you gonna play it on a horn of some sort? I saw some people blowing two saxophones at the same time; looks ridiculous... but probably preferable to guitar as far as the inventions go, 'cause again, you'll have two independent hands :-) .
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Jeremiah Lawson » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:17 am

I posted a three-voiced fugue in B flat for solo guitaron Delcamp. That's partly what I meant. I also believe contrapuntal writing for the guitar is more practical than a lot of people seem to believe it is. It also happens the B flat major invention is my favorite of the set.

Octave displacement solves a lot of problems in contrapuntal adaptation. The other big solution that is a big no-no in serious counterpoint is voice-crossing. At the keyboard or for choral literature this cheat isn't usually necessary but crossing voices is not forbidden because it sounds bad, but because it can confuse linear development and your singers go out of tune. On the guitar, however, crossing voices is virtually inevitable.
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Mad Hatter » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:37 pm

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:I posted a three-voiced fugue in B flat for solo guitaron Delcamp. That's partly what I meant.
Oh I see. Where is it, in the sheet-music section somewhere?
I also believe contrapuntal writing for the guitar is more practical than a lot of people seem to believe it is.
No argument here, but the important qualification here is for the guitar. Bach didn't write for the guitar; this particular set was written expressly for a clavier and is quite idiomatic to it. I have no personal experience, but I would imagine that this collection should be quite hard to realise on the guitar, at least some of it.
crossing voices is not forbidden because it sounds bad, but because it can confuse linear development and your singers go out of tune.
Very interesting, I never knew that.

PS. I think I've found it: it's "Fugue in B flat" in the "Board index ‹ Classical Guitar ‹ Our scores for classical guitar" section, right?
PPS. Ah no, what I found is your own fugue! I can't for some reason see the attachments, but regardless, writing fugues is cool. Thumbs up! One day I'll learn myself.
Last edited by Mad Hatter on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bach Two-Part Inventions for Solo Guitar

Postby Nick Cutroneo » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:43 pm

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:Octave displacement solves a lot of problems in contrapuntal adaptation. The other big solution that is a big no-no in serious counterpoint is voice-crossing. At the keyboard or for choral literature this cheat isn't usually necessary but crossing voices is not forbidden because it sounds bad, but because it can confuse linear development and your singers go out of tune. On the guitar, however, crossing voices is virtually inevitable.


It is the same thing with the violin fugues that he wrote. He purposefully crossed voices because he had to, so there is the historical precedence of doing that. So if he did write for the guitar, I'm sure he'd have to cross voices at some point.
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