When changing strings

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
ljerams

Post by ljerams » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:31 am

I see no problem with the subject being further discussed and really there is absolutely no need for people to get heated about which side one is attached to!

After all this Forum is for debating chosen subjects and it is quite possible that new opinions and hopefully new facts may arise that can give us better guidance. The two sides don't have to agree, each have their own opinion that are different :D .

The original thread was locked so another one will have to be started.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:34 am

Well, OK. You are certainly free to start another thread if you want to discuss that more. For my taste it has been done to death already....it has been discussed ad-nauseum, always the same. Nothing new has come out of it in the last several times it has been discussed, so I don't really see the point...seems to me it becomes a waste of server space after a certain point.

You are right, there's really no reason for this discussion to get heated, but it does. It's all conjecture and opinion anyway....maybe that's why it gets heated?

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James Lister
Luthier
Posts: 7072
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Post by James Lister » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:49 am

Eldert wrote:"There have been a number of discussions on this, and I hope this isn't going to start another one guys! "

Well JMD Lister..................
there are newcomers on this forum you know......
Eldert
Fair enough - but keep watching this topic, and maybe search for the last one on this subject, and you'll see why I made this plea!

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:53 am

jmdlister wrote:
Eldert wrote:"There have been a number of discussions on this, and I hope this isn't going to start another one guys! "

Well JMD Lister..................
there are newcomers on this forum you know......
Eldert
Fair enough - but keep watching this topic, and maybe search for the last one on this subject, and you'll see why I made this plea!

James
You're right, James. This thread may well get hijacked now. You can bet I won't get baited into it, though.

ljerams

Post by ljerams » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:12 pm

Sasquatch can't resist the temptation :D

I'm not a betting man but I know him too well these days.

Actually this thread should not be hijacked. If somebody wishes to discuss it more, they should start a new thread as I said earlier.

Norman Spencer

Restring

Post by Norman Spencer » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:48 pm

Sasquatch,
Thank you for your detailed instructions. I did restring my guitar this past week-end, faithfully following your method, and was entirely satisfied with the result.

This is the neatest restringing I have accomplished to date.

Thanks again for your assistance. You have transformed what was to me a difficult and awkward task into a satisfying experience.

Jarod, I read your post with great interest. This looks like an excellent way to restring.

It looks like it would be necessary to re-drill the holes in the bridge to permit the strings to pass though twice. I am concerned that this would make it impossible to restring using the traditional approach, should the result be unsatisfactory.

Does anyone here have experience with Jarod's method of restringing?

Sasquatch51

Re: Restring

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:01 pm

cancon wrote:Sasquatch,
Thank you for your detailed instructions. I did restring my guitar this past week-end, faithfully following your method, and was entirely satisfied with the result.

This is the neatest restringing I have accomplished to date.

Thanks again for your assistance. You have transformed what was to me a difficult and awkward task into a satisfying experience.

Jarod, I read your post with great interest. This looks like an excellent way to restring.

It looks like it would be necessary to re-drill the holes in the bridge to permit the strings to pass though twice. I am concerned that this would make it impossible to restring using the traditional approach, should the result be unsatisfactory.

Does anyone here have experience with Jarod's method of restringing?
I'm glad it was of help to you, cancon. That makes me feel better.

As far as passing the string through the tieblock twice, the only way I know of to do that is to use a 12-hole tieblock (or 18 hole block), or to greatly enlarge the holes in a 6-hole block as in Jarods' photos. A standard 6-hole tieblock can be converted to 12-hole, by the way. It is a painstaking job and requires making your own tools to do it without removing the tieblock, but it can be done. You can tie strings in the conventional manner on a 12-hole block without using the extra holes. I'm not sure about enlarging the holes in a 6-hole block...I would guess that you could still tie in the conventional manner if you wanted to, but it seems it would be much more prone to string slippage.

It looks like Jarods' method, like a 12-hole block, allows for a better string break angle. It actually looks like a pretty good alternative to me if you don't mind modifying your guitar.

Norman Spencer

Enlarged Holes in tie-block

Post by Norman Spencer » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:28 pm

Thanks again Sasquatch,
I am going to take a look at applying Jarod's approach with my least favorite guitar. It may not be possible with the tool that I now have (ordinary 3/8" power drill) if that is the case I may simply file this one away for possible use in the future.

Sasquatch51

Re: Enlarged Holes in tie-block

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:11 pm

cancon wrote:Thanks again Sasquatch,
I am going to take a look at applying Jarod's approach with my least favorite guitar. It may not be possible with the tool that I now have (ordinary 3/8" power drill) if that is the case I may simply file this one away for possible use in the future.
Yeah, I don't think it will be possible to do with just a standard drill and bits. If you wanted to try it, what you would need to do is go to a hobby shop and get some brass tubing with an inside diameter the same size as the bit you want to use, then you can sweat the bit in there so you essentially end up with a very long bit. If the ID of the tubing is slightly larger that your bit, you can use some epoxy. That way, you are holding the drill past the end of the guitar's body and you can hold the appropriate angle and not damage the guitar top. Make sure the top is protected at all times anyway. The hard part is keeping everything aligned. The trick is to use a slow drill speed, don't put enough pressure on it to flex the tubing, and just take your time and be very careful.

Norman Spencer

Drilling hles in my guitar?

Post by Norman Spencer » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:25 pm

Fagetaboudit

ljerams

Post by ljerams » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:12 pm

I agree. Unless everything is set up accurately in a jig it will be impossible to keep the drill aligned correctly.

It really would be a shame to risk the damage 8)

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:31 pm

ljerams wrote:I agree. Unless everything is set up accurately in a jig it will be impossible to keep the drill aligned correctly.

It really would be a shame to risk the damage 8)
It's something you have to take great care with, to be sure...but it's certainly not impossible. It can definitely be done, neatly and cleanly, even without a jig (although a jig would definitely be good insurance)...I know from personal experience that it can, indeed, be done. You have to use something like a push-awl to get a hole started in precisely the correct place to keep the bit from "walking" off mark, after that it's a matter of taking it slow and easy and making sure that you stay aligned. It's not for everybody, especially the faint-hearted, but it's not impossible either (few things are actually impossible). However, I would never recommend that anyone do it to a guitar of any value until they have some experience with it. If you wanted to build a jig, that shouldn't really be that difficult to do either.

fretfull

Post by fretfull » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:01 pm

I don't know how important this really is but I was told to look at the ends of the wound strings and put the one that is cut clean (not frayed) at the bridge . Supposedly the other end is weaker and will be cut off at the tuner.

Sasquatch51

Post by Sasquatch51 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:37 pm

fretfull wrote:I don't know how important this really is but I was told to look at the ends of the wound strings and put the one that is cut clean (not frayed) at the bridge . Supposedly the other end is weaker and will be cut off at the tuner.
No, actually it's the other way around. The end with the loose wraps goes to the tieblock. Those loose wraps are supposed to make it easier to feed through the tieblock holes and easier to tie the string.

jarods

Post by jarods » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:00 am

hello again, please take care of your guitar...to enlarge the holes it is a decision, and you have to be sure about the bridge , the soundboard (safety) and what about a luthier can advise you...
But in this case, if you'll do it, I think it'll be better to use a flexible cable with short drill (stuck :idea: ) at the end , and to turn very slowly (instead an aligned tool). But this is my own opinion...nevertheless the axis of the hole must be parallele to the soundboard , with a no bad slope to prevent the drilling :idea:
Fortunately, my guitar was with nearly the diameters to pass twice the strings (bass 1th and 3 th particularly). I do not use drill or like that, but i enlarge with an old 1 th string little by little, then i doubled the string. Notice my holes were nearly the good diameter (2 x 1,1 mm) for the basses.
I know somebody, who has 4 guitars as mine, from the same firm...He did the same job on each hole with strings, and some sharpened iron stem tool or drill manually with extreme precaution :idea: ; but as a precautionous handyman you have to work...
This method is interesting as i mentionned, and you will recover a positive & sensible result on the quality 's sound, as positive as the guitar is expensive.
In france very few luthiers did the method with 12 holes...i think to drill 6 new holes (near the existant :!: ) is very dangerous whithout the advise and the specific job of a luthier.
BTW : for the traditionnal method : as the trad1 & 2 show, i prefer this kind of bass attach, more pretty (but not possible for trebbles in this case...)...
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