Rest Strokes

[Stendal]

When I had guitar lessons as a child, I often used to scream "this is impossible" when trying to combine free strokes and rest strokes in a chord (my mother still makes fun of me because of this). Now, it has become second nature.

Good to know that someone mastered that. In one piece I needed to pluck 2nd and 6th string and at the same time mute the 5th string. So I decided to use rest stroke on the 6th string and free stroke on the 2nd. Can't say it's impossible but I am still struggling with doing that consistently. And at certain times I even wondered if I was doing something marginal and there might actually be an easier way to achieve the same result

[avoz]

Denian, Thanks for pointing out that I am not "out of my depth", though Blondie will always assume (I think) that he is splashing around in deeper waters.

Paul, I don't think the chap was being rude, just a little 'abrasive' perhaps?

[Sean]

Does anyone use rest strokes? I generally find them very cumbersome to use except when I need to emphasize a few notes. I've noticed that some music requires frequent use of them, even using them in unison which is very hard.

To get back to the original post, I use rest strokes primarily for what you've outlined here; namely, the emphasis of melodic notes. Mind, there are many times when rest strokes aren't feasible. If the melody falls on an interior string and the string below the melody must also sound, you can't use rest stroke.

What particular pieces have you run across the requirement of using rest strokes in unison?

[Freeman]

I don't think anyone has even mentioned the thumb rest stroke in this thread. Let me see... V. Lobos Estudio 1 comes to mind.

[paulcroft]

I don't think anyone has even mentioned the thumb rest stroke in this thread. Let me see... V. Lobos Estudio 1 comes to mind.

I mentioned it, in response to a dismissive post on the need for rest strokes, on page one.
It's been mentioned many times since. Have you read this thread?

Paul.

[Freeman]

Sorry Paul, I stand corrected!

[paulcroft]

That's quite ok; have a seat.

Paul.

[Freeman]

That's quite ok; have a seat.

Paul.

Sure glad you didn't say "get in line"

[Prominent Critic]

I joined fairly recently, and I'm somewhat in shock to see this even being discussed on this kind of forum. The rest stroke is, and has been for ages, an integral part of basic classical guitar technique. To talk about it as though it's some kind of "option" strikes me as outlandish. The rest stroke is not merely desirable, but rather it is necessary to accomplish several effects in playing classical guitar. Perhaps first and foremost, is it used to distinguish melody from harmony – a crucial aspect of playing. If anyone doubts the importance of that, I suggest trying to play "Romance," or better yet, Sor Study 17, by using all free stroke. It won't take more than a few bars to see that you will end up with an amorphous mess, a muddy run of notes with no form or structure, and with no delineation of the melodic line. Then there are scale passages and runs, which if played free stroke will sound weak. In addition to that, in a rapid scale passage you cannot muster the kind of speed with all free strokes that you can with all rest strokes, nor the control to execute a run at a very fast tempo where that is called for. You might as well ask a baseball player if his bat is really necessary, or an auto mechanic if he really thinks he needs to use a wrench. I hardly think this is even a subject for serious discussion.

[Rob MacKillop]

If anyone doubts the importance of that, I suggest trying to play "Romance," or better yet, Sor Study 17, by using all free stroke. It won't take more than a few bars to see that you will end up with an amorphous mess, a muddy run of notes with no form or structure, and with no delineation of the melodic line.

Now, if only Fernando Sor had had you as a teacher. I'm sorry, friend, but if you end up with an amorphous mess it's not Sor's fault (he never used rest strokes) but yours. You need a lot of free-stroke practice. As for delineation of melodic line or parts, lute players had spent a few hundred years doing just that without ever considering rest strokes. By overstating your case you have made yourself out to be a poor guitarist - surely not the case? I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could play Romance, bringing out the melodic line at different volumes. Don't deduce from this that I am against rest strokes - far from it. They obviously had their place, and Yepes (who arranged Romance) put them all over the place. But when it comes to Sor, there is no need for them.

Rob

[Denian Arcoleo]

Modern understanding of classical technique has deepened to the point where rest and free stroke are options, not requirements.

But they've always been options, right back to the beginning. The trick is to know which option to employ and when.
If anyone is saying that classical guitar technique has "evolved" to the point where rest stroke is no longer required, then I would tend to go along with ProminentCritic.

[Prominent Critic]

Well, obviously using any kind of stroke at any given point is an option. You have the option to play an ascending arpeggio with A-M-I, but I don't think anyone would do it. What I meant by saying that it is not an option, for example in Sor 17, is that it is not an option if you want to play it properly. I would like to a hear a rendition of Sor 17 played all free stroke. Perhaps someone can tell me where I can listen to that. If there is in fact a delineation of the melodic line in such a rendition, it will only be accomplished by lightening up or changing the character of the accompaniment. So yes, of course that would delineate the melodic line, but only because of relativity. That does not alter the fact that in an absolute sense the melodic line will be weaker in general, since no free stroke will ever have the fullness of a rest stroke. Yes, I know a well executed free stroke can have body, but all things being equal, it can never have the body and fullness of a well executed rest stroke. As for the velocity comment, I qualified what I said about free strokes by alluding to "rapid scale passages" and "at a very fast tempo." Certainly scale passage can be played fast all free stroke, and I do just that – when the tempo calls for it. And I was not suggesting that all runs be played rest stroke. But in general terms, at a certain tempo a rest stroke is superior. And yes, I have a flamenco background, and in flamenco runs are always executed rest stroke. But again, that does not alter the fact that at a very fast tempo you cannot play a run free stroke with the velocity and body that you can play it rest stroke. I defy any classical guitarist to play a run free stroke at the tempo of Paco de Lucia, or of any of the leading flamenco guitarists.

Yes, we know Sor didn't use rest strokes. Mozart and Bach didn't use Finale computer composing software either. And Sor also didn't play with nails. Without getting into THAT discussion, I think the vast majority of classical guitarists today would agree that playing with nails is far superior. But using nails or not is . . . an option.

[Denian Arcoleo]

I rather enjoy, discussions here on the whole. I state things as I see them, accept criticism and try not to be rude to anyone. I would enjoy discussing/arguing directly with Ramon as his experience is so vastly different from mine. Sadly Denian, the petty point scoring that you seem to relish serves only to detract from the otherwise open nature of the forum.

Funnily enough stating things as I see them is exactly what I do here too. You on the other hand seem to want to participate in a forum where everyone else agrees with your point of view.

[Prominent Critic]

Just a quick addendum to my last post. My original post was in response to what I perceived to be assertions to the effect that "the rest stroke is dead," falling into the category of analogous assertions that "the novel is dead" and "God is dead," both of which have proven to be somewhat more tenacious than the assertors would have us believe.

[Prominent Critic]

"BOWLER" wrote to me - "As for Sor ... well, with all due respect for your skill and experience in other areas, perhaps you should consider expanding your already considerable knowledge?"

I thank you for your advice, and I have taken it. I have now done extensive research on Sor on Google and the internet, and Encyclopedia Britannica, and after exhaustive study and analysis, thanks to you I have now learned that Sor did not use rest strokes.