Tremolo--are some people physically unable to achieve it?

[paulcroft]

And it turns out I'm right ...

Based on what?

Based on superb advice from a master.

Ramon

Reminds me of a line from one of my great songs:

"I've got conclusive evidence ....... somebody told me."

[kloeten]

I have just started with some basic tremolo exercises, starting 'from scratch'. My tremolo is even with the metronome at 90. I intend to keep a log for a while, see if I can carefully, gradually move it up to the 140 target set by various people in this forum.

Edit: I have posted a sample file of my tremolo work for early feedback. It is in the 'Extracts of work in progress' section. Appreciate your feedback!

Edit: Many thanks for the feedback! Moved to BPM =120 but still working on it

[Prominent Critic]

So here is an exercise to practice any specific run in case you're giving a concert. This exercise can be used for any run in any piece, but to take the first one that comes to mind – Capricho Arabe – Measure Eleven.

Here's how to practice that run –

1) Play the first note of the run, then the third, then the fifth, etc. until you run out of notes, then go back to the second note of the run and play that followed by the fourth, then sixth, etc.

2) Do the same thing backwards.

3) Play the notes in random order, using all kinds of permutations.

4) Occasionally practice it in the order it appears in the sheet music.

Ramon

[paulcroft]

Capricho Arabe – Measure Eleven.

Here's how to practice that run –



3) Play the notes in random order, using all kinds of permutations.

I thought that was how people did play it...

[paulcroft]

Oh, and by the way - a general tip. If you take a very common arpeggio pattern just using imam
it is likely that you will attain differing fastest speeds, depending on which finger plays on the beat: e.g. imam/ mami/ amim/ mima. Interestingly, in levelling up the overall speed you will probably find that you can also play even faster and with greater even-ness.

Don't take my word though, try it for a few weeks. Simplest way is 1/8 notes followed by 1/16ths.[i.e. double the speed.]

[soundknight21]

I used to believe that I was incapable of doing trem. But after many practices I became better. Every night I would put my middle finger in a vice and apply a little bit more pressure every night. Eventually my middle finger ended up the same length as my other fingers.
Just kidding.

Sent from my MotoA953 using Tapatalk

[Jstanley01]

Based on superb advice from a master.

Ramon

Reminds me of a line from one of my great songs:

"I've got conclusive evidence ....... somebody told me."

Well, I guess we'll see how it went when I post a performance of Recuerdos here...

...in fifteen or twenty years...

[Blondie]

For example, I constantly see tremolo advice given to practice all kinds of different finger orders, even though the order to be learned is PAMI. So you are told to practice PMIA – PMAI – PIMA – PIAM – PAIM, as well as PAMI. This is utterly pointless, and wastes a vast amount of your practice time. Every repetition you do that is not PAMI is one more repetition that could have been PAMI, which is what you're trying to learn. A technique like tremolo includes muscle memory, and PMIA imparts no muscle memory for PAMI.

If by chance you have been doing these exercises, far from advancing your technique, they would be retarding it.

That assertion is contradictory to just about every published advice on tremolo I have read. Eg;

"In conclusion, I would like to stress the importance of playing different forms of arpeggios, as a preparation for playing the tremolo proper." (The complete Study of Tremolo, Vladimir Bobri.) The book advocates practicing all the patterns mentioned above, and several more. Bobri states that this advice was given to him by Segovia.

Scott Tennant, (Pumping Nylon) also recommends practicing multiple patterns, and usually everything he says about technique can be traced to the Romero family, though i do not have Pepe's method to hand at the moment to check what Pepe has to say on the matter.

However, you do have a point, its just you are not presenting the full picture and thus giving misleading advice.

If someone has hit a brick wall tempo wise practicing solely PAMI , lets say they have been daily practice for a year or two and cannot get beyond 110 for the quarter note, what can you offer them, just keep going?

Tremolo is basically very fine control of free stroke, demanding good control and independence for example between AM, IM, PA. If someone has reached a high standard of technique and never worked on tremolo, your approach would probably work. Simply a matter of getting that pattern up to speed.

The vast majority of players, however, are still developing their technique when they begin working on tremolo and so the advice to play different patterns is sound. Working the whole hand, working on variety of patterns (as well as different tempi, dynamics etc) is what is required to build overall control. It is often the case that working on one right hand configuration helps develop something else eg practicing MA scales benefits our IM scales.

As Doug Niedt says, in his exhaustive study of tremolo, :

"I also have to say that whether an ancillary exercise
aids your tremolo will be dependent upon your current overall right-hand technical
development. In other words, if your right-hand technique is below average overall, almost any
exercise that improves your right-hand finger independence and facility will improve your
tremolo. On the other hand, if your right-hand technique is already above average, the
benefits of practicing ancillary exercises will be minimal."

However, I disagree with his notion of 'average' (whats 'average' ?) and see the relationship is simpy linear - the more developed one's RH technique is in general, the less one would have to work on other RH patterns to improve their tremolo.

[lagartija]

^ +1

Thank you for your very thoughtful and helpful response, Blondie.

[kloeten]

One unexpected benefit of tremolo study: our baby daughter finds it so boring that she goes to sleep piecefully within 5 mins after I have started practicing tremolo.

[mikoguitar78]

Don't get obsessed with tremolo. And if you have a bad tremolo, don't play Recuerdos; anyway it has been played so often... Seriously, every musician has stro,g and weaker areas in his playing (Chuck Norris excepted). If you can't play a tremolo at 140, don't throw yourself away! Same for scales. The only sine qua non is to play musically, but here there's no objective measurement and we can't say: hey, I've made it up to 160 musical points, you have only 120. You know, if you play an allegro, don't be obsessed with speed. Above a certain speed, you can't make it sound good anyway. So don't neglect articulation, silence is a part of music. The problem with tremolo isn't just about speed and evenness, it's about how you can play from pianissimo to forte, with some rubato, and still get the musical effect. And that's something very difficult indeed.

[Jstanley01]

Don't get obsessed with tremolo. And if you have a bad tremolo, don't play Recuerdos; anyway it has been played so often... Seriously, every musician has stro,g and weaker areas in his playing (Chuck Norris excepted). If you can't play a tremolo at 140, don't throw yourself away! Same for scales. The only sine qua non is to play musically, but here there's no objective measurement and we can't say: hey, I've made it up to 160 musical points, you have only 120. You know, if you play an allegro, don't be obsessed with speed. Above a certain speed, you can't make it sound good anyway. So don't neglect articulation, silence is a part of music. The problem with tremolo isn't just about speed and evenness, it's about how you can play from pianissimo to forte, with some rubato, and still get the musical effect. And that's something very difficult indeed.

And where's the intermediate repertoire for the technique? To a noob such as myself, the system seems to be the practice of mind-numbingly boring exercises for an hour a day for five years, and then learn Recuerdos. *Ta-Dah!*

The one-and-only I've run across is Trevor Maurice's arrangement of Malagueña, which progresses from p-m to p-m-i, and then to p-a-m-i over the course of an actual piece of music.

[Blondie]

And where's the intermediate repertoire for the technique? To a noob such as myself, the system seems to be the practice of mind-numbingly boring exercises for an hour a day for five years, and then learn Recuerdos. *Ta-Dah!*

Well I disagree with the methodogy you are describing but fair point - not much early tremolo repertoire out there, I ended up writing my own. There are a few other options though - top of my list would be the Sagreras tremolo study (book 3 etude 4) which is a lovely tune and very straightforward on the left hand, also you'll find a tremolo arrangement of a Tarrega study here here on Delcamp if you search for it, another obvious one is to do a tremolo version of Romanza.

People often mention carcassi Op60 7 - its not a tremolo study but its a darn good apeggio study that has clear benefits for tremolo and includes several bars of 'tremolo like' material.

I am sure there are other options too.

[jeric524]

Can't do the tremolo until my finger nails on ami grew.

[zinc1024]

I have a theory regarding the difficulty of learning tremolo.

Simply put, I think it becomes much harder to learn if (when) you are older.

It's a really tricky set of neural connections and synapse firings that have to occur to do this technique smoothly at speed. I've spent many months working daily, and while I've made progress, I've never achieved great success. I'm 53.

My instructor teaches lots of kids. He showed one of his very good students, at age 16, the basics of the tremolo, and one week later, he was blazing away on it.

I just suspect (based on admittedly very little data!) that there's lots and lots more neural learning ability when younger related to this skill, and as we get older, it's much more difficult to get our brains to "wire up" properly in response to tremolo study.

Then again, maybe this is just rationalizing my inability to "get it"!

I've pretty much resigned myself to not having a tremolo in this lifetime (though I may make another aggressive charge at it this summer). Next lifetime, I'm going to start much sooner!

-Kevin