Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

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Suchin
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Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Suchin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:59 am

Hi
Posts on tremolo are not lacking, so perhaps this questions has already been asked and answered...

What is the benefit of playing tremolo with two fingers instead of p-a-m-i?

thanks
suchin

blevinsjake
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby blevinsjake » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:04 pm

I've asked a similar question just for people's opinion (after thinking about Ana Vidovic using pmim for her tremolo). Generally, it's all about what's comfortable and tone. Vidovic apparently likes the tone of her mim better than her a finger. My a finger "flies" a bit more than my m finger, so keeping a tight tremolo works better for me with pmim (though I still practice pami and pimi and pmim). Using two fingers requires a slightly faster finger movement. I think most of the guitarists on here agree that being able to play tremolo with various finger patterns is preferable, and with all possibilities being equal, you can simply default to the finger combination that sounds and feels the best for you.

Jake

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Suchin
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Suchin » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:43 am

Thanks Jake. I tried p-m-i-m for a change, it does feel more "compact" so better control to a certain extent but somehow for me, does not flow as smoothly as p-a-m-i. Probably needs more practise...

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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Diego » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:48 pm

I tried both. The thing is when you use only Thumb and I and M fingers they have to move more than if you add another finger. Try doing tremolo p i i i, then p i m i or p m i m and then pami. In a way doing pami each finger has more time to relax reposition and strike the strin again.

Try it out, and see what works.
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Suchin
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Suchin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:49 am

Thanks Diego I will try it out.

theknowle
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby theknowle » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:40 pm

I've also started using pimi after many years of struggling with pami.
I do find it concentrates the mind more, reminding me consciously to think of the notes I'm playing.
I become careless using pami. I find it's tempting to 'grab' at the notes, and the whole tremolo passage gets broken up into four note sections with little breaks between them. For me, the tremolo effect smoother and more controllable using pimi. Quite refreshing really!

I do use i.p. a lot for scales though rather than i.m. - but that's another story, and probably a very boring one :roll:

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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Ramon Amira » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:56 pm

The A finger is obviously weaker than either I or M. Moreover, both I and M are more agile. In my opinion the best tremolo is PMIMI or PIMIM, if you use a four treble note tremolo, which as I have stated before is vastly superior to the old three treble note tremolo.

But if you use a three treble note, then I feel that either PMIM or PIMI is better than PAMI, because it eliminates the weaker A finger.

And the advice sometimes given to practice various different combinations as a regular part of tremolo practice makes no sense. You should TRY different combinations until you find one you want to stick with.

But having settled on that pattern, you should spend all of your practice time on just that pattern. Every repetition you do of some other pattern is one more repetition you could have done on your chosen pattern, and therefore is wasted.

Ramon
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Steve Murtha

Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Steve Murtha » Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:14 pm

Ramon-I respectfully disagree. I think practicing different finger combinations helps develop right hand flexability.which is important. Moreover there are many tremolo passages that don't adhere to the classic bass-three treble notes which therefore must be fingered differently. Segovia said that tremolo is an arpeggio on one string-you wouldn't practice just one right hand arpeggio fingering,would you?

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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Evangelos Skropidas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:59 pm

Prominent Critic wrote:The A finger is obviously weaker than either I or M. Moreover, both I and M are more agile. In my opinion the best tremolo is PMIMI or PIMIM, if you use a four treble note tremolo, which as I have stated before is vastly superior to the old three treble note tremolo.

But if you use a three treble note, then I feel that either PMIM or PIMI is better than PAMI, because it eliminates the weaker A finger.

And the advice sometimes given to practice various different combinations as a regular part of tremolo practice makes no sense. You should TRY different combinations until you find one you want to stick with.

But having settled on that pattern, you should spend all of your practice time on just that pattern. Every repetition you do of some other pattern is one more repetition you could have done on your chosen pattern, and therefore is wasted.

Ramon


Why is the four note tremolo superior? Woudl RDLA soudn better with a four note tremolo :?: They are very different in feel and purpose, I dont think they can be compared.
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Eugene Kurenko
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Eugene Kurenko » Thu May 02, 2013 4:50 pm

I play classical tremolo using p-m-a-m pattern. It's most comfortable for my anatomy.
By the way J.Sagreras in his method indicate p-i-m-i fingering for every piece with tremolo.

EJReyes75
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby EJReyes75 » Thu May 02, 2013 5:36 pm

I agree w/ Jake's previous post that generally it's what is most comfortable and which produces best tone/sound for you.

I also agree w/ Ramon - that 'a' finger is in most cases, a player's weakest finger (not for all, but I think most).

I've had situations with my Teacher where he gives me a choice in fingerings... (sorry this is digressing a little fr tremolo) - but he'll say "as your teacher, I would want you to develop your 'a' finger so I would include it.... but from a performance/sound standpoint, leaving out the weaker finger and mostly relying on the stronger ones makes for better sound/performance." He obtained a Master's in guitar performance and his teacher would always re-finger his pieces and remove 'a' from all his fingerings as it produced the best sound/performance for him.

If you are already a great player and have achieved a certain level of technical proficiency that is enough to be able to play a tremolo with p-a-m-i, but either it's not giving you the sound you want or not as comfortable, then I don't see why you can't change it to something else that works better for you. But if you're only using mimi because you can't do ami because you haven't developed your technique, then I would say keep trying to do ami to build up your 'a' finger.

I don't know if that makes sense but that's my thought on it.
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Rossa

Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Rossa » Fri May 03, 2013 11:48 am

I am so glad that I returned from the wilderness and joined this forum.

I had it drilled into me at a young age that I must use my a finger and I was terrified I would go to hell if I didn't.

In spite of a promising start as a youngster I could not stick with it.

Years later after several intermittent efforts to return to this instrument I am back again and tentatively finding my way.

But losing my way on years past under a belief that I was no good because in spite of dedicated hours to develop tremolo with strict Pami and for fear that Pimi is some form of treason and with frustration at progress....

On my absence from CG I played bass and over the years felt comfortable with I m, I m a and settled many a time on I a. Or a I

So I am certain any shortfall on my tremolo is likely to have very little to do with strength.

In saying this I appreciate fine motor on cg is completely different to rest stroking on a bass guitar but there are relationships given the use of fingers and development of the hands

But for teachers out there be careful what and why you say and entrench in the minds of young students.

Comments above about p I makes perfect sense to me if it is natural and works well for the student.

Guilianis 120 arpeggios provide plenty of alternatives where a can be strengthened and any number of scales can be played with combinations including a.

Perhaps it is a saintly truth that for purists the tremolo must only be played p a m I but if a piece requires tremolo semi quavers at 120 BPM or above and if pi cuts it then pi it should be...

No offence to purists but I remain a student of some excellent teaching and a student from some flawed teaching.

It has taken me a long time to recover from my own failings and whilst many people subscribe to the idea of find a teacher. I think students need to also be aware that some alternatives are allowable and acceptable.

Many students entrust their lives in the teacher and how uplifting is it to see some of the comments above where a teacher took the liberty to suggest and endorse p I.

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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Evangelos Skropidas » Fri May 03, 2013 9:38 pm

Rossa wrote:I am so glad that I returned from the wilderness and joined this forum.

I had it drilled into me at a young age that I must use my a finger and I was terrified I would go to hell if I didn't.

In spite of a promising start as a youngster I could not stick with it.

Years later after several intermittent efforts to return to this instrument I am back again and tentatively finding my way.

But losing my way on years past under a belief that I was no good because in spite of dedicated hours to develop tremolo with strict Pami and for fear that Pimi is some form of treason and with frustration at progress....

On my absence from CG I played bass and over the years felt comfortable with I m, I m a and settled many a time on I a. Or a I

So I am certain any shortfall on my tremolo is likely to have very little to do with strength.

In saying this I appreciate fine motor on cg is completely different to rest stroking on a bass guitar but there are relationships given the use of fingers and development of the hands

But for teachers out there be careful what and why you say and entrench in the minds of young students.

Comments above about p I makes perfect sense to me if it is natural and works well for the student.

Guilianis 120 arpeggios provide plenty of alternatives where a can be strengthened and any number of scales can be played with combinations including a.

Perhaps it is a saintly truth that for purists the tremolo must only be played p a m I but if a piece requires tremolo semi quavers at 120 BPM or above and if pi cuts it then pi it should be...

No offence to purists but I remain a student of some excellent teaching and a student from some flawed teaching.

It has taken me a long time to recover from my own failings and whilst many people subscribe to the idea of find a teacher. I think students need to also be aware that some alternatives are allowable and acceptable.

Many students entrust their lives in the teacher and how uplifting is it to see some of the comments above where a teacher took the liberty to suggest and endorse p I.

I dont think that anyone argues that if something works for someone, it should be condemned. The point in a m i is that all fingers should be equally developed, nothing more.

Just a question so as to not start a new thread. I discovered that the problem in my tremolo is a delay between -p and -a. Any effective excersise to correct this? If I get over this, I will have a passable tremolo at last.
"Skropidas Evangelos, the most influential guitarist of all time", Diinekis Skropidas, the 3 year old son of the guitarist, spoke just before his usual nap.

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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby EJReyes75 » Fri May 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Have you ever tried it with dotted rhythms or bursts?
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Evangelos Skropidas
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Re: Tremolo with 2 fingers - why?

Postby Evangelos Skropidas » Fri May 03, 2013 11:39 pm

EJReyes75 wrote:Have you ever tried it with dotted rhythms or bursts?


Bursts is my main practice in tremolo. How would it like with dotted rythms? (maybe I do practice it that way too, I am not sure)
"Skropidas Evangelos, the most influential guitarist of all time", Diinekis Skropidas, the 3 year old son of the guitarist, spoke just before his usual nap.


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