Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:44 pm

git-box says"I disagree, he's just continuing the same rest stroke hand position that he had for the other 5 strings. He didn't mid-scale change his technique, he just landed on the sixth string and the middle joint movement was exposed for us to see."

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I agree with the statement, but what does it say about rest stroke? Yes there is middle joint movement with rest stroke, but I think the fact that the middle joint does not have to follow through makes rest stroke simpler. The knuckle joint movement is essentially the same in both strokes.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Here's Barrueco playing the Chaconne. Look at 3:30. I don't think this one has been posted. I can't slow it down; maybe someone else can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIMsb0wWtVQ

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:50 pm

Guys. This is real. See clips:

Forget the first link, this one:
https://youtu.be/V2V1voudm7w

https://youtu.be/Nz78HcGFXFY
Last edited by Ortega on Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

SteveL123
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by SteveL123 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:13 pm

Hi Ortega,
I am learning tremolo myself and not criticizing. Are you aware that you have a pause between i and p in the sequence of pami, resulting in a gallop? Maybe slow it down with a metronome? Start real slow at 80 beats/ min, one note per beat, then slowly increase the speed to build evenness?

Elman Concepcion
Luthier
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Elman Concepcion » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:00 am

Here is what a proper tremolo should sound like. 😍
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8kAo7u7TBQ

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:55 am

Forget the first link, this one:
https://youtu.be/V2V1voudm7w

Ortega
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:57 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:13 pm
Hi Ortega,
I am learning tremolo myself and not criticizing. Are you aware that you have a pause between i and p in the sequence of pami, resulting in a gallop? Maybe slow it down with a metronome? Start real slow at 80 beats/ min, one note per beat, then slowly increase the speed to build evenness?
This is better:

https://youtu.be/V2V1voudm7w

Ortega
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Ortega » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:59 am

Elman Concepcion wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:53 am
Ortega wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:50 pm
Guys. This is real. See clips:

https://youtu.be/4LvEBqtvYjo

https://youtu.be/Nz78HcGFXFY
I watch those two vids.
Trying to be open minded I watched them both in their entirety.
I can't believe I wasted all that time.

These vids are nothing but nonsense.

Some sort of conspiracy theory, mixed with delusional grandeur.
It is completely correct. Why don't you ask Maestro Pepe Romero, if you don't believe me.

How about this:
https://youtu.be/V2V1voudm7w

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:18 am

An incredible amount of middle joint movement in this tremolo

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:51 pm

Ok, that may be the best tremolo I've ever heard. Incredible amount of knuckle joint movement as well as middle joint movement. The range of motion used by both joints is roughly equal. BTW, the performance was quite musical.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:55 pm

Yes, there's no question that all joints move, there's never been any question about that. The question has always been about when, where, and how much. We can debate those elements forever, but I think there's one thing we can say for sure, a great tremolo involves moving the finger joints. Ortega's tremolo has almost no finger joint movement, he's doing tiny movements from the fingers and bouncing or twisting from the wrist and that will likely never translate into a professional-level tremolo. I'm sure of it because I've never seen a professional tremolo that looked like that.

While I may not agree with some of this or like his tone, etc. I believe his points and demonstration of moving all the joints with an exaggerated range of motion at first is good advice. There is likely some element of doing a sympathetic roll to create the fast tremolo in one movement, but the fingers still need to trained individually, you can't just chunk your way to a strong and even tremolo. See around 3:00 min for a demonstration of exaggerating the movements of the joints and how that aids in getting to a basic tremolo technique that works.


Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:25 pm

You have to admit though, that Ortega's tremolo is getting better. Mazakazu doesn't have a particularly good tremolo, IMO.

If you look at Kim's tremolo, you see the nice 'roll' of the fingers; sort of like a wave (Segovia's description). The problem with most tremolos is the that they fatigue quickly and sound uneven. For a good tremolo motion, we should probably be looking at aspects that allow for relief of the tension.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:37 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:25 pm
You have to admit though, that Ortega's tremolo is getting better. Mazakazu doesn't have a particularly good tremolo, IMO.

If you look at Kim's tremolo, you see the nice 'roll' of the fingers; sort of like a wave (Segovia's description). The problem with most tremolos is the that they fatigue quickly and sound uneven. For a good tremolo motion, we should probably be looking at aspects that allow for relief of the tension.
Sorry, I don't think Ortega's tremolo is any good at all and I believe he's approaching it wrong. I agree there is some element of just letting it happen, what you call a wave and what I've read Tennant calls "chunking", but that's similar to the argument that a persons free stroke is just there waiting to be uncovered by eliminating tension or putting the hand in the perfect position or whatever. It's not true, it takes time to develop by making the correct movements over months and years.

Here's the Kim video in slow motion. All the joints move, and they're all important, but it's middle joint that has the widest arc. The faster the tremolo goes the more fully extended the middle joint is (and also the large knuckle, MCP), she's kicking the joints out, not simply relaxing them back.

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:35 pm

Ortega may not have a good tremolo, but it is getting better- that's undeniable.

It looks like Kim has a basic Berg tremolo: sympathetic motion with 'ma' and an alternation between i and m. I think you are somewhat wrong about the reaching part. There is no way to know since the fingers can move in slow motion and still get out there. Those fingers have plenty of time to return, and the only concern to limit the build up on tension. I think this can be done by just being aware of the feeling. Berg himself has a very good tremolo and so do (I believe) many of his students.

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:08 pm

You know, I've seen this throwing out of the 'i' finger from the middle joint before in other good tremolos. I agree that there is an impulse extension in the 'i' finger. There has to be since it extends farther than a natural extension.

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