Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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Larry McDonald
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Larry McDonald » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:03 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:08 pm
You know, I've seen this throwing out of the 'i' finger from the middle joint before in other good tremolos. I agree that there is an impulse extension in the 'i' finger. There has to be since it extends farther than a natural extension.
Yeah, I've seen this, too. I think there are at least two ways to achieving a good tremolo; (1) keeping the hand in the normal/default position and extending "i" to compensate for the angle of the MCP's, or (2) turn the entire hand a little bit to allow "i" to reach the string without extending as is shown above, and not changing it's normal motion to the string. I would think that there is a middle ground between these two approaches as well.

I personally like to turn my entire hand (not as much as Segovia). I find this to be more consistent, but I played the other way for a while and it worked ok, just not as effortless. I also find that I like my knuckles (MCP's) more above the string that I am "tremoloing". I also use a shorter nail.

For what it's worth, your mileage may vary.

Lare
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:45 pm

Given the index finger is shortest, no matter what position you are in. (parallel to the string or approx 45 degree angle) the index finger will have to reach out more than the other fingers. There's no such thing as a hand position where every finger can be plucking its string from a so-called perfect position, whether that's with the MCP over the string or some other theoretical ideal. That's one reason I think the knuckle over the string advice isn't very good, just like in the advice the left hand fingers should be parallel to the strings isn't specific enough. Hand positions are more dynamic than that, there are many variables.

Here's an interesting lesson on this issue of choosing the hand position (alignment) for tremolo

Youtube
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:54 pm

Some great closeups of his tip joints (which are held firm throughout all free strokes). I think there are uses for relaxing the tip joints, but as default technique I don't think it works to soften the end of the tool that much, you'll loose precision. I'd have to see some videos of players relaxing the tip joints while playing technically demanding free stroke passages to believe it can be done.

Youtube
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CactusWren
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:47 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:54 pm
Some great closeups of his tip joints (which are held firm throughout all free strokes). I think there are uses for relaxing the tip joints, but as default technique I don't think it works to soften the end of the tool that much, you'll loose precision. I'd have to see some videos of players relaxing the tip joints while playing technically demanding free stroke passages to believe it can be done.

Youtube
How can you tell they're being held firm? I agree that they look firm, and they certainly aren't hyperextending, but beyond that, I wouldn't bet my guitar on anything.

You may want to check out Vicente Amigo, another flamenco player. He's well known for letting his tips get very loose, despite his old teacher Manolo Sanlucar's injunction against it. Amigo is a technically virtuosic player.

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by CactusWren » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:49 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:54 pm
Some great closeups of his tip joints (which are held firm throughout all free strokes). I think there are uses for relaxing the tip joints, but as default technique I don't think it works to soften the end of the tool that much, you'll loose precision. I'd have to see some videos of players relaxing the tip joints while playing technically demanding free stroke passages to believe it can be done.

Youtube
How can you tell they're being held firm? I agree that they look firm, and they certainly aren't hyperextending, but beyond that, I wouldn't bet my guitar on anything.

You may want to check out Vicente Amigo, another flamenco player. He's well known for letting his tips get very loose, despite his old teacher Manolo Sanlucar's injunction against it. Amigo is a technically virtuosic player.

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Larry McDonald
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Larry McDonald » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:04 pm

guit-box wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:45 pm
Given the index finger is shortest, no matter what position you are in. (parallel to the string or approx 45 degree angle) the index finger will have to reach out more than the other fingers. There's no such thing as a hand position where every finger can be plucking its string from a so-called perfect position, whether that's with the MCP over the string or some other theoretical ideal....
Unless your default position has trained the fingertips to play off the left side, then the 1st finger isn't extending much at all, if any.
See David Russell below. Check out the deliberate movement to place the MCP's over the strings after the short introduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8kAo7u7TBQ

Like I said, there are at least two ways that I teach tremolo. We should also note that for many women the "a" finger is shorter than the "i" finger, and so a training to play off the right side can be justified. For many men, the opposite is true.

LMc
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:08 pm

Larry McDonald wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:04 pm
guit-box wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:45 pm
Given the index finger is shortest, no matter what position you are in. (parallel to the string or approx 45 degree angle) the index finger will have to reach out more than the other fingers. There's no such thing as a hand position where every finger can be plucking its string from a so-called perfect position, whether that's with the MCP over the string or some other theoretical ideal....
Unless your default position has trained the fingertips to play off the left side, then the 1st finger isn't extending much at all, if any.
See David Russell below. Check out the deliberate movement to place the MCP's over the strings after the short introduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8kAo7u7TBQ

Like I said, there are at least two ways that I teach tremolo. We should also note that for many women the "a" finger is shorter than the "i" finger, and so a training to play off the right side can be justified. For many men, the opposite is true.

LMc
Humans have differing length i,m,a fingers, I don't think gender is relevant to the conversation. The right to left vs left to right question of plucking is very interesting. I'd like to get some hi res extreme closeups of dozens of concert guitarists tremolo to see for certain what side they are plucking from. I posted several videos of Segovia and O. Ghiglia where they appear to be playing off the right side of the nail. I suspect that some players who have both r-l and l-r ramps on i,m,a fingers may be playing differently from one finger to the next. Kannegieser talks about his a finger having a r-l ramp in his youtube lesson on tone production and nails.

You really can not look at a right hand playing from the front view and notice anything about how the finger joints are moving or what joint is over the string. This side view of David Russell's tremolo clearly shows him reaching out from the middle joint of his index finger

Youtube
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:20 pm

CactusWren wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:49 pm
guit-box wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:54 pm
Some great closeups of his tip joints (which are held firm throughout all free strokes). I think there are uses for relaxing the tip joints, but as default technique I don't think it works to soften the end of the tool that much, you'll loose precision. I'd have to see some videos of players relaxing the tip joints while playing technically demanding free stroke passages to believe it can be done.

Youtube
How can you tell they're being held firm? I agree that they look firm, and they certainly aren't hyperextending, but beyond that, I wouldn't bet my guitar on anything.

You may want to check out Vicente Amigo, another flamenco player. He's well known for letting his tips get very loose, despite his old teacher Manolo Sanlucar's injunction against it. Amigo is a technically virtuosic player.
Go to the youtube player and select .5x or .25x. There are small amounts of middle finger tip joint collapse or flex backwards, but it's not much at all, he's quite firm with the tips for fast free strokes. (which is what I'm talking about here) I have videos of V Amigo on my slow moe page, check them out. Yes, his tips bend way back for rest strokes, but I've been unable to find him doing anything fast free stroke using that technique. If you find something, post a video, I want to see it. Or if you are successfully doing fast arpeggios or alternation or tremolo with tips that bend backwards post a video. I'm more than happy to be shown there are more possibilities than I originally thought, just at this moment I have not seen it.

Here is V Amigo. Huge amount of collapsing for rest strokes, but no collapsing for free strokes. Don't you think if he was letting those tips be relaxed all the time, it would be occurring for the free strokes some amount too?


Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:34 pm

Whoa, this is amazing

Link removed for copyright reasons.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Elman Concepcion
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by Elman Concepcion » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:33 pm

Jennifer Kim.
Yes amazing.

I have to say.
Ive had Korean students.
And I have to say - they have the best biological fingernails and fingertips for playing classical guitar.

Not my fault - Just natural evolution. 😇

kmurdick
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by kmurdick » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:20 am

git-box says: "This side view of David Russell's tremolo clearly shows him reaching out from the middle joint of his index finger"

Depends on what exactly you mean by reaching out. It looks like the middle joint is not extending any farther than it would if it were relying on a natural extension (unlike Kim's). So how do you know if it is extending using an impulse or just returning naturally to equilibrium?

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:42 pm

Looks like copyright issues got that one video removed Search Jennifer Kim - Walton Bagatelle No. 5 if you want to see it.

It's a brighter approach to playing than Russell, but I can appreciate both approaches. It does seem that many younger players who have this brighter sound and play a bit more perpendicular to the strings than someone like Russell also have incredibly fast free stroke abilities.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

Post by guit-box » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:50 pm

THIS THREAD IS COMING TO AN END...IT''S TIME.

Given this thread was intended to be about examining the right hand technique of concert guitarists through video analysis, and the fact that Delcamp forum policy limits posting videos that may infringe on copyright issues, we've decided it would be best to close out this topic. This has been a very useful and helpful research project for my own technique, and hopefully it has helped others as well. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed comments to the topic.

I may or may not start a blog that contains some of the info that was presented here along with corresponding videos. It will depend on my time, which is limited, but you can always check out my Slow Moe YouTube page for additional video content and info about guitar technique.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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