Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:46 am

From The Natural Classical Guitar -- Lee Ryan 1984, For the best leverage, the top joint or knuckle of the finger that is playing should be located at a point on a line that is perpendicular to the soundboard right above the string that is being played
Here is another example of the knuckle over the string idea that goes back to 1984. I wonder where this idea originated.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:09 pm

In Pepe Romero's book La Guitarra I cannot find any discussion of knuckles over strings, but the following paragraph is interesting:
Pepe Romero: One of the most important things to understand before discussing the right hand position and the free stroke is where the stroke actually originates. The finger should be made to move freely as a result of the impulse it is given by the forearm and the palm of the hand. The forearm is the place where the thought of the sound to be produced is transformed into energy. Then, the consciousness must be place into the palm, and from there the signal is sent to the finger tip, which acts as a sensitive receiver. It is at the finger tip that the energy to set the string in vibration is given direction.
Huh? Does anyone think they understand what he is saying here? It seems like he is saying to use the weight of the forearm to displace the string, but then he talks about the palm and looses me. In a later quote he seems to contradict himself:
Pepe Romero: In all playing, the motions of plucking the strings should be all in the fingers and not in the palm or the arm
He just said the stroke originates in the forearm and the palm. This is very contradictory and unclear.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:19 pm

Charles Duncan, The Art oF Classical Guitar Playing: For most playing (and certainly almost all free stroke playing) the knuckle should be positioned nearly vertically over the tip.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Eduardo Fernandez Technique, Mechanism, Learning: ...the finger's attack should be realized relatively perpendicular to the string, or at least with the last phalanx of the attacking finger more or less perpendicular. The above calls for the other phalanxes, and the right hand, to be presented in such a way that if we were to change the curve of the attacking finger into a straight line, this line would be perpendicular to the string. This implies that the line of the knuckles lies roughly parallel to the strings
I'm reading this as the middle knuckle is over the string it plucks for free stroke. If the player straightened the finger, then both middle and main knuckle would be over the string it is plucking, but I think he's writing about the later only for descriptive purposes and he's not advocating the main knuckle be over the string it plays.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:31 pm

Jorge Caballero right hand position

Youtube

I can't really tell from this angle if his middle knuckle is over the string, but it seems close.The tilt towards the little finger (supination) in his hand position is interesting. His hand stays in this position for the entire piece, so this must be his standard playing position.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Luis_Br
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:57 pm

Does anyone know a scientific experiment or measurment for which muscles are faster?
If I try to move my tip up and down, out of the guitar, just up and down, moving from middle joint only (forearm) or knuckle only (palm), I feel I can move faster muscles from palm (knuckle) than those from forearm (middle). But it might be just my developed habit of using more one or the other.
I've always felt it logical because movement from forearm (middle joint) are commanded by muscles which are further, longer tendons, they need to pass through wrist, more risk of tendinitis and so on. But it is pure speculation.
Is there any kind of study about this?

I remember I've read a piano technique book where the author discussed experimental studies demonstrating that moving the whole arm with fingers muscles "fixed" is faster than moving from finger alone, explaining the reason repeated chords and some special movements should be done from arm. There was a table relating different arm muscles speed. But it was mainly arm vs wrist vs finger. There was no separation between different finger muscles (palm/forearm or knuckle/middle). It would be nice if there is some experiment to show which is faster or that both are similar.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:13 pm

It does sound interesting from an academic standpoint, and I would certainly be interested in reading about this, but since the finger segments all work together in a complimentary way, I'm not sure if having this information would instruct us how to play better. I've never understood people who say one joint or the other is where you pluck, since from what I see in the strokes of the guitarists in the videos, it is a combination of all finger segments being used. For my hand, it's about first moving the knuckle, then the middle uses the momentum of the knuckle and takes over, and the tip either absorbs some shock or transfers the impact if it is kept fixed.

I watched hours of Dorothy Taubman institute piano technique videos and they talk a lot about using the rotation of the forearm to play piano. I think it's a sound technique, and those of us who play guitar with a pick use this motion. I'm not sure how you would transfer it to fingerstyle playing but it works great for flat picking.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:40 pm

I finally found some decent right hand videos of David Russell. They are grainy, but you can easily see the right hand finger movements.

Youtube

What I see that is interesting in the above video is a twitching from the wrist. It seems like he's using the wrist along with the fingers to pluck the block chords.


Youtube

I see a lot of movement of the middle joint (but also movement of the knuckle) in the above video. It does appear like his middle joint is more-or-less over the string he's playing. He seems to also have the thumb a little lower, (less than 45 deg for sure) allowing a small tilt back to dampen the low strings.


Youtube

In the above video he appears to use a bit of pivoting on the forearm contact point to bounce while playing the block chords. I also see a lot of middle joint movement.


Youtube

It's interesting that in order to play tremolo with his straight arm/wrist position that is at about a 45 degree angle to the strings, he has developed a stroke with his index finger that reaches out quite a bit. Like most people, he has an index finger that is shorter, so with his arm/hand/wrist position, that means his index finger is more in a rest stroke position, but he still is able to play a free stroke from that position.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

choctawchas
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by choctawchas » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:21 pm

Have you looked at Ruben Diaz yet?
Oliver Moore 2012
Miles Henderson Smith 2012

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:44 am

Have you looked at Ruben Diaz yet?
I've watched some of his instructional stuff on youtube, but I have to admit I know very little about flamenco so I don't know how to judge its quality but it seems good. I found it interesting that he said Paco de Lucia plays picado using the middle joint only. I think there is something to using the middle joint, but the videos show Paco using the whole finger as far as I can tell. If you have a link of Ruben Diaz that has something interesting for the right hand, please post it, I'm interested.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:47 am


Youtube

This video of Andrew York has a lot of nice close-ups of the right and left hand. What I see in his right hand is a lot of straight up and down movement of the fingers, and almost no follow-through to the palm.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:54 pm


Youtube

Here's a clip of Guilio Tampalini's right hand. His finger stroke has a lot of arm movements and pulling up on the note. The tone is a bit outside the spectrum of what I've always considered good tone (he gets a lot of fret slap), but he seems to be going for that sound.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:34 pm


Youtube

The last 1/3 of this instructional video of Adam Del Monte has some interesting technique advice about angles of attack, fingertip give, pulling up vs playing from knuckle, etc. A good demonstration, I just wish the camera angle allowed us to see the finger.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:23 pm


Youtube

I've watched this Pumping Nylon video many times over the years, but never really analyzed what I see him doing, vs what he's teaching.

He always teaches that a stroke is:
1.plant
2.pressure
3 release

He also teaches that the knuckle joint is the main impulse of the stroke, but when you look at him doing the actual ascending or descending arpeggio, there really is no pressure that can be seen displacing the string. Basically I see the knuckle taking the finger to the string, I see a plant, but after that I see the middle joint plucking (or releasing) the note. There must be enough pressure from the knuckle to hold the finger on the string (and maybe that's what he means by pressure), but if there was any downward pressure from the knuckle, then you'd see the string displaced downward, but there's no string displacement downward. So I have to conclude that any pressure from the knuckle is static pressure and it's really the middle joint that's activating the pluck--the knuckle is just holding its ground.

I also don't see the finger spring back into position after it plucks. The knuckle starts moving back into position immediately after the pluck, but the middle continues into the hand and only comes out when needed. The movements all get smaller, the faster he goes.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

choctawchas
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by choctawchas » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:24 pm

guit-box wrote:
Have you looked at Ruben Diaz yet?
I've watched some of his instructional stuff on youtube, but I have to admit I know very little about flamenco so I don't know how to judge its quality but it seems good. I found it interesting that he said Paco de Lucia plays picado using the middle joint only. I think there is something to using the middle joint, but the videos show Paco using the whole finger as far as I can tell. If you have a link of Ruben Diaz that has something interesting for the right hand, please post it, I'm interested.
http://youtu.be/4xlxf7D5xcQ

What he discusses in this video is almost completely at odds with what most CGs have been and are being taught.
Oliver Moore 2012
Miles Henderson Smith 2012

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