Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Videos

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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:28 pm

That's the video I had mentioned earlier, thanks for finding it and posting it. I don't know if he's correct or not, it seems like what Paco is doing, but I do think he overstates the use of the middle joint. You can clearly see in the Ruben Diaz videos towards the end, that he is using knuckle and middle. But he may be correct that the lower hand position does help to favor more middle joint usage. Or maybe this position just forces the knuckle into a minimum movement situation since it's already fully extended and can only flex a tiny amount--keeping the finger closer to the string. I think Paco is using some of the momentum from the knuckle to pluck, but the middle is playing a part too. Also, I didn't think that Paco was letting his tip joints give, and he doesn't do it much, but I see some give in his i, m fingers at times. Check out the video and let me know what you see:


Youtube
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choctawchas
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by choctawchas » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:26 pm

I'm much more interested in PDL's thumb as he plays forward string 6 to string 1 and back string 1 to string 6.
As he moves forward his thumb is centred on the 6th string. However as he moves backward the thumb relaxes completely and
drags across the soundboard. I've used this in my scale playing and it does change the kinaesthetic feel of the mechanism.

Although I'm not convinced that your argument for this type of examination leads to any significant changes in playing
I will keep an open mind for the moment.
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Praeludium
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by Praeludium » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:05 pm

IMHO the video of mr.Diaz isn't really convincing. Mainly because his fast scales are all muddled and unintelligible. This video of Grisha Goryachev is much more impressive, and he can play (and he shows it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBg2hJjEec
I don't know if this is okay for slow motion video but he's definitely not playing from the middle joint (he clearly pushes the string down with extended fingers and flexed, high and relaxed wrist). And he does play at lightning speed.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:32 pm

I'm not so convinced by the Diaz video either. Not many people can play fast scales like Paco, but he's not even close. Does this mean his advice is no good, it might, I'm not sure. He teaches what he says is Paco's technique, but I have no idea if he even studied with Paco or if he's just claiming to be an expert on his technique.

Here's an interesting page with pictures of the hand positions of concert flamenco guitarists doing picado. I'm not really sure what the difference is between picado and rest stroke. Graf-Martinez seems to think that classical rest stroke is always performed with straight fingers, and picado uses curved fingers, but I've seen examples of both finger curvature for each discipline. I don't think there is such a clear difference as he describes.

http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-g ... index.html

Graf-Martinez seems to describe picado as having a bent finger, so the knuckle-to-middle finger segment is more parallel to the soundboard. He says the motion is from the middle joint and the knuckle movement just brings the finger to the string and should be kept to a minimum. I definitely see minimal knuckle movement, but I still think the knuckle is participating on some level==it must at least be kept firm to allow the middle to get any leverage. If the knuckle didn't at least hold it's ground, the finger would pass over the string without creating much sound.
Graf-Martinez wrote: Of course, it’s not possible to repeat the stroke without movement of the main joint. The secret of Picado however, is to keep this movement as small as possible.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:04 pm

I don't know if this is okay for slow motion video but he's definitely not playing from the middle joint (he clearly pushes the string down with extended fingers and flexed, high and relaxed wrist). And he does play at lightning speed.
Grisha Goryachev's scale speed is astonishing. Interestingly side note: There's another link from this same series where he shows his nails and they are very short. I don't think we can assume that since the fingers are straight there is not contribution from the middle joint. If the knuckle brings the finger to the string, providing momentum, and the middle joint does the actual plucking from the point of contact to the resting string, you wouldn't necessarily see a lot of movement from the middle joint.


Youtube


Here is the Grisha Goryachev video slowed down. It's not the best video for lighting, and closeup, but the angle is good. I see what looks like the impulse and push coming from the knuckle, but I also see middle joint movement at the string. I also see a small amount of "give" in the tip joint. When he plays on the 6th string, you can see the middle joint follow-through is larger, so perhaps if the stroke was all from the knuckle the middle would not follow through, the straight finger would just hit the soundboard. Is he modifying his stroke at the 6th string to not hit the soundboard, or is this a tell tale sign of the middle joint plucking at the string?--it's hard to say.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:08 am


Youtube

Here's another slow motion video of Grisha showing his tip joints collapsing for fast rest stroke scales.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:27 pm

I've been revisiting this video of Scott Tennant playing rest stroke speed bursts. His m finger tip is giving as I mentioned before, but also, if you look carefully at the index finger you can see the knuckle brings the finger to the string, then the very small movement from the plucking string to the resting string is caused by a movement from the middle joint. This is additional confirmation in favor of my conjecture that the *finger movement* is the same for rest stroke, free stroke, pull-offs, and that movement is an exchange of work that first starts with the knuckle flexing (pre-pluck) and finishes with the middle joint flexing(pluck).


Youtube
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Here are some interesting quotes from Christopher Berg's Mastering Guitar Technique:

About rest stroke p 41.
While movement from the knuckle joint helped to bring the finger to the string, the stroke must come from the middle joint. Let the muscles release and relax as the finger makes its movement through the string. Muscular effort should not be applied during the finger movement
I interpret this to mean that any muscular flexing from the knuckle joint is finished once the finger gets to the string and the middle joint takes over. This allows the finger to reposition faster for the next note. There is no pushing through the string from the knuckle joint for rest strokes. (or free strokes or pull offs -- my opinion)

About the prepared stroke, coordination and timing p 45 (planting in other words)
The prepared stroke helps develop the coordination and exact timing between the knuckle and middle joints: the point of preparation is the point where the middle joint contributes to the stroke

Wow, this is great. I've not read this in an any other method book.

I'm so glad to have found these quotes, since they confirm exactly what I see in the videos--See the previous Scott Tennant speed burst rest stroke video.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

grantray

Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by grantray » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:17 pm

Thank you Guit-box. I only recently began studying classical method after my playing stagnated with Americn fingerstyle folk music. This study of yours has confirmed much of my own suspisions about the discrepencies between methods taught and what I've been able to observe watching videos of masters in practice, such as old masterclasses given by Bream, etc. The video of York playing is especially interesting. To me, he seems to be using the knuckle (in concert with each finger's other digits) in the reverse direction to pluck/pull the string away from the soundboard. Are you seeing that as well?

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:38 am

he seems to be using the knuckle (in concert with each finger's other digits) in the reverse direction to pluck/pull the string away from the soundboard. Are you seeing that as well?
Yes, that is what I see and believe is going on. I resisted the idea that the knuckle could be moving away from the palm while the middle joint is moving towards the palm because so many classical guitarists will vehemently argue that doing so is wrong. (it contradicts the Aaron Shearer uniform direction of joint movement, and what most teachers and methods advocate). I was also resistant because I was taught from the very beginning it was wrong to have joints moving in opposite direction and so many great guitarists that I admire teach the uniform direction principal--Kanengeiser, Tennant, etc. But I can't ignore what I see in the videos and what I feel works best in my own hand. It surprises me after seeing all the videos I've posted that people can't see the joints are moving in opposite directions.

I'm not saying in any way that the knuckle is not contributing to the stroke. You can see that the knuckle brings the finger to the string and can put some force/energy into the string--displacing it a lot, a little, or barely at all. But after the knuckle brings the finger to the string, it's the middle knuckle that takes over the plucking and the knuckle bounces off the string in the opposite direction. In all the videos where they are playing fast, the knuckle joint does not follow through at all--all forward momentum of the knuckle is halted once the finger reaches and presses the string. The actual plucking movement (the initial sound or the loudest part of the waveform) comes at the instant the middle joint starts moving towards the palm and the knuckle is simultaneously moving away from the palm. What makes the pluck IS the middle joint moving towards the palm WITH the knuckle moving away from the palm. It's this instant that you would align with the metronome, not the knuckle joint flexion--which is the pre-pluck. That's not to say that one is more important than the other, but I think of the movement that's in sync with the metronome as the thing that generates the pluck. Given the first joint to move towards the palm is the knuckle, it can appear that it's the knuckle that generates the pluck, but it's not the case. If you try to pluck the string with the middle joint locked in position, and just moving the knuckle, all the knuckle can do is displace the string--it can't actually pluck, try it and see. You need to move the middle to get a pluck. This is true with both rest stroke and free stroke. Maybe there's some good reason to practice following through from the knuckle after the string for beginners or special cases, but from my point of view this is dangerous since the one thing that nobody is doing in the videos is following through from the knuckle joint. Sure they do it at slows tempos or when demonstrating, but never at fast tempos.
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:24 pm


Youtube

Here's a new video of Pepe Romero playing i,m alternation rest strokes in extreme slow motion. Here's what I see in his stroke:
1. plant (knuckle brings finger to string)
2. pressure (knuckle presses string down, middle joint extends a bit, and tip joint collapses)
3. release (the pluck--middle joint flexes and knuckle repositions)
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guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:38 pm


Youtube



Youtube

Interesting close-up videos of David Starobin's right hand. He seems to use a lot of middle joint and upward lifting from the knuckle along with bouncing of the hand.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:06 pm


Youtube

This video of David Tannenbaum is interesting because his right hand technique seems so strained here. I've seen other videos where his technique seems to have more minimal movement and is more relaxed. There are several places where he has a lot of follow-through from the large knuckle and it just doesn't look very natural.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:46 pm


Youtube

This video of John Williams shows a free stroke pluck that is clearly generated by the middle joint moving towards the palm while the knuckle joint simultaneously moves the finger upward.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

guit-box
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Re: Right Hand Technique & - Concert Guitarist Slow Motion Vid

Post by guit-box » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:04 pm


Youtube

Here's an instructional video by Jorge Caballero on reflexive speed for the right hand. Looking forward to more instructional videos by him.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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