Why not stand with the guitar?

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
kurt guitar

Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby kurt guitar » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:53 am

Here is a great example of standing while playing: Now if i had this guitarists guitar, i may stand too..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD_PTl4Isvo

I like the piece he is playing. Cant seem to find it online though.. Should be in Public Domain somewhere on the web.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:17 pm

Thanks for this example of guitarist who plays in standing position!
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:53 am

Here is my example of standing while playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr1eI8iPD90
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

kurt guitar

Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby kurt guitar » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:53 pm

Have you seen this one?
scroll to the bottom of this delcamp link.
Two guitarists standing up and playing a duet:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/napoleoncoste.html

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:28 pm

kurt guitar wrote:Have you seen this one?
scroll to the bottom of this delcamp link.
Two guitarists standing up and playing a duet:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/napoleoncoste.html


Very nice duet and beautiful music and great performance! Who will argue with that ? They playing classical music on classical guitar!
Great! When I started this subject here I felt like I'm alone, but no there are many classical guitarists who playing in standing/moving position!
Thanks for this wonderful link, Kurt!
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:28 pm

Interesting scientific information regarding sitting and standing/moving...
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/life/healt ... ice=mobile
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

Dxn

Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby Dxn » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:49 am

Actually, looking for a thread with comments regarding videos of John Jarvie, there's a lot of detail about his setup in some questions people ask in the comments of the YT videos.
Slightly OT, but regardless of the standing position, I'm somewhat more impressed with the tempo at which he plays Carcassi's Study Op. 60 No. 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOJbFV0INE
IIRC, he's got the cutout because of some hand/arm injury that prevents him from reaching over to higher frets (not sure if that's also related to the preference for standing), but whatever it is doesn't slow down the movement of his fingers. I'm not sure if I could coordinate mine to move quite that fast, but wow.

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:10 pm

Dxn wrote:Actually, looking for a thread with comments regarding videos of John Jarvie, there's a lot of detail about his setup in some questions people ask in the comments of the YT videos.
Slightly OT, but regardless of the standing position, I'm somewhat more impressed with the tempo at which he plays Carcassi's Study Op. 60 No. 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOJbFV0INE
IIRC, he's got the cutout because of some hand/arm injury that prevents him from reaching over to higher frets (not sure if that's also related to the preference for standing), but whatever it is doesn't slow down the movement of his fingers. I'm not sure if I could coordinate mine to move quite that fast, but wow.

Thanks for another example of guitarist who play in standing position. :)
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

ronjazz
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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby ronjazz » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:38 pm

A possibly easy way to get the Kenny Hill effect for standing players is to attach (by double-sided tape or a velcro setup) a piece of foam to the lower bout of the back of the guitar, thereby pushing the bottom out a bit so that you may see the fingerboard better. Personally, I am enjoying the standing and playing/singing without looking at the guitar, it enables me to engage the audience a bit more. It's working well for me, in general. I also purchased a folding guitar stool which has a built-in foot rest and a built in guitar holder, which enables me to sit for the more involved pieces or instrumentals, and stand while singing. My "act" is based around brazilian and Spanish music, so sitting while playing Villa-Lobos or difficult choros sometimes is helpful.
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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:49 pm

ronjazz wrote:A possibly easy way to get the Kenny Hill effect for standing players is to attach (by double-sided tape or a velcro setup) a piece of foam to the lower bout of the back of the guitar, thereby pushing the bottom out a bit so that you may see the fingerboard better. Personally, I am enjoying the standing and playing/singing without looking at the guitar, it enables me to engage the audience a bit more. It's working well for me, in general. I also purchased a folding guitar stool which has a built-in foot rest and a built in guitar holder, which enables me to sit for the more involved pieces or instrumentals, and stand while singing. My "act" is based around brazilian and Spanish music, so sitting while playing Villa-Lobos or difficult choros sometimes is helpful.

Thanks for sharing your experience of playing in standing position! I experimented a lot with 7 strings guitars too, and now I'm playing 7 string guitar with my original conception for 7th string (fretless). As far as playing Villa-Lobos or difficult choros I personally do not feel any difference if I play sitting or standing. I usually don't look on the neck at all and trying to control my playing with my ears only, but I understand that someone need a lot of experience to be comfortable with it.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:42 pm

I'm not going to continue this theme. It seems like everybody else want to play in sitting position.
I see that my activities on this forum is just waste of my time. I shared my position and ideas and that's enough.
Good luck with guitar playing! Enjoy music! My best wishes for all!
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:14 pm

After I decided to stop this theme, some of my friends asked me to continue. I did post a couple of more posts.
My opponent mentioned moderators and moderators read through this subject and agreed that my posts were insulting, untrue, trolling etc. That's their (and probably others opinion) but was not how I see this at all.
I never had in my mind to insult anyone, as I thought that we just could talk about bringing not only opinion but some science (as much as it was possible) .
Since my understanding is incompatible with the understanding of this subject by majority of this forum - then I would not write about this theme on forum anymore.
I regret that I started this and spend a lot of time on it too :) My position remains the same - that sitting is not ergonomic, with guitar or not. But certainly people are free to choose what they like and certainly my opinion about it have no positive value here ...
Thanks for your posts and interest to this subject. I appreciate your opinion and the way you enjoy playing guitar. That's most important for you. People (guitarists) free to do whatever they like and how they like it. I mistakenly thought that I could help with my experience, advice and rational look (as it seemed to me :)) at the subject to somebody, but it just seems like it is only leading to confrontation and disappointment... I would rather play guitar and compose music - it is lot more rewarding! :)
Thanks very much to all for your patience and interesting communication (as I thought) !
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!

ronjazz
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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby ronjazz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:20 pm

Well, moderators tend towards the authoritarian, but I particularly found your input very valuable. The classical guitar world is very snobby and opinionated, probably because guitarists spend way too much time by and with themselves. In any event, you showed this forum some great alternatives, and some of us will have a better experience because of your thoughtful approach. Personally, I found not one instance of trolling, insulting or negativity in your posts, just a very positive and self-assured outlook.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby Vesavekkuli » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:05 pm

kurt guitar wrote:Have you seen this one?
scroll to the bottom of this delcamp link.
Two guitarists standing up and playing a duet:

http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... coste.html

The guy on the right, Thomas Offerman, is a great player, a very good teacher and a nice person, too. He had big problems about his helth - stopped playing - I don't know how he is now, is he playing the guitar again - I really do hope so. First thing which came to my mind when I saw this video was: does the playing position cause any problems, because it makes more tension to some body-parts other than sitting position does? It's easy to understand that achieving that level what Thomas had on his playing that time, asks really awfully much practising. Otherwise I feel standing position quite comfortable with my Lacote-guitar, and the instrument sounds more airy. On the same page on delcamp-scores about Duo Sonare there is a video of me playing Coste's Study - there I used a modern guitar, but I still havent tried the same study by standing and playing the same Lacote - I pressume that it will be much more difficult on standing position... I do need to read all of comments on this subject - sorry, I didn't do it yet.

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Re: Why not to stand with guitar?

Postby AndreiKrylov » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:35 am

Dears Vesavekkuli and ronjazz!
Thanks a lot for your comments and your warm words and support and interest to this subject.
I receive other requests to continue this and I'll try :)

This theme about standing/moving position is only part of my guitar playing conception.
It is integral and important part of it but not the essence of my guitar philosophy.
The essence is :
1. Freedom of movement for body, hands and fingers of guitarist (as much as it is possible and achievable in the real world)
2. Freedom from pain, as it is unfortunately very common feeling associated with playing complicated and physically and mentally demanding music long time ...
3. Freedom from tiredness, exhausting through free hands but less movement and less power as possible
4. Freedom of mind which is lot more easily possible when you don't need to overcome pain and when you feel free and relaxed and open and not tired and concerned and not trying to win something or to be perfect of perfect.

I listened and read Thomas Offerman and he has some ideas with those I would totally agree:

1.Certainly he is a great example that you could play complicated and virtuoso music in standing/moving position.

2. I love this statement from his "Extracts „Die Integrative Gitarrentechnik“:

Thomas Offerman : "The intention of this thesis is to contribute objectivity to the discussion on what is “The Right Guitar Technique” by comparing the pure adoption, without due consideration, of traditional dogma and technical concepts with a framework derived from a knowledge-base drawing on anatomic and physical factors. This new framework is not designed to provide the reader with restricting advice, but to make allowance for his or her specific anatomic preconditions and aesthetic conceptions.

After studying this thesis and the accompanying technical exercises, the reader should be able to play this wonderful instrument, the guitar, joyfully and free of any health risks and according to his personal taste and preferences. Although for non-guitarists this postulation might sound obvious, experience shows that even internationally acclaimed guitarists do sometimes suffer from pain in their hands, arms or back as well as from even focal dystonia.

Being able to play the guitar free from pain or health risks directly affects the freedom and ability normally associated with artistic expression. Traditionally, guitar technique was accompanied by numerous restricting directives. However, this thesis which is based on knowledge, aims to oppose traditional perspectives by presenting the concept that, in essence, we make mistakes only when we play our instrument without conscious and mindful awareness. Experimenting with movement, even with large movement, is the best way to reach the goal."
"Being able to play the guitar free from pain or health risks directly affects the freedom and ability normally associated with artistic expression. Traditionally, guitar technique was accompanied by numerous restricting directives. However, this thesis which is based on knowledge, aims to oppose traditional perspectives by presenting the concept that, in essence, we make mistakes only when we play our instrument without conscious and mindful awareness. Experimenting with movement, even with large movement, is the best way to reach the goal."
Andrei Krylov: Great statements, great description!

But his, Thomas Offerman, next statement is a contradiction to that:

"Stating that pre-tension is a precondition for any movement leads to the conclusion that the demand for “relaxed instrumental playing” as such is paradoxical. Only the acceptance of pre-tensing and pre-adjusting forces enable the player to play an instrument free from superfluous tension, and with the highest precision in space and time so necessary for making music."

Andrei Krylov: Why does one need to "pre-tension" for freedom of movement?
Tension is opposite to freedom... Pre - tension is twice opposite...
pre-tension for certain type of apoyando is good for fullness of sound, but if you use pre-tension for all kind of techniques, then how could you relax? How could you remove tension from body and mind, therefore nerves and tendants? Pre-tension as a general principle means to double control on the whole system therefore to double stress on the system (tendants, nerves, muscles etc.) ... and then ... so unfortunately we came back to his starting words -"Traditionally, guitar technique was accompanied by numerous restricting directives."

Therefore I'm happy to see that we are in agreement with him about standing /moving , and also about principles how to look on guitar technique in general, but we disagree on some certain details and ways to achieve similar goals.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at CDbaby, iTunes, Spotify, Amazon etc. Thanks!


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