deviated wrist works well for this guy

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
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Mark Featherstone
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deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Mark Featherstone » Sun May 17, 2015 6:52 am

I was directed to this young man's winning performance by the Bradford Werner newsletter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEzoyzv ... e=youtu.be
As you see below, he uses a significantly deviated wrist, no doubt required to cross the strings at angle when the guitar is held in this near-vertical position. The camera may have exaggerated the deviation, but it still seems pronounced. All the advice about classical guitar I've ever read or heard would say that this is bad form. On the other hand, I've also read many times that every "rule" in CG can be broken. So is this one of the latter?

FYI, Bradford Werner's site, This is Classical Guitar, can be found here: http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/

Thanks,
Mark
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BugDog
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by BugDog » Mon May 18, 2015 4:19 pm

Kind of looks like he's playing off the right side of his nails instead of the left like most do. The wrist looks rotated clockwise as well as bent.
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Michael.N.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Michael.N. » Mon May 18, 2015 9:17 pm

Of course it doesn't necessarily mean that it will work for others. It could lead to injury, just as the Segovia canted wrist doesn't suit most of us.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Luis_Br » Mon May 18, 2015 10:20 pm

Difficult to analyze through a picture. I've seen some videos, he does great music, IMO!
About the wrist, the forearm is a bit twisted, the wrist to the side may be actually a bit down, which is not as bad.
But from a frontal view it really looks too much deviation to me too.
Another point to consider is that he is young. Let's see if he keeps this in his 40s or 50s...
Parkening was a great player, but his back was terribly arched IMO. What about his health now?
I don't want to criticize anybody, I know it is easy to say after the problem occurred, from the outside. I just want to point out that time should be considered in the analysis.
About Segovia, I consider his wrist fine. It is just a small of arch, wrist is very relaxed and he is very economical with RH fingers movements. I think his movement dynamics overcome by far some small arch. I would rather criticize his back posture, with some inclination and rotation, despite it might be not so bad either.

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Michael.N.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Michael.N. » Tue May 19, 2015 8:02 am

I'm shocked that you think Segovia's wrist was fine. Obviously it was fine for him but I'm not sure you would want to use it in teaching beginners. Quite often he had a very noticeable cant to the right. He may not have always held this position but there's not much doubt that it was a noticeable deviation of the wrist.
I do agree that time and age can be a huge factor in whether awkward positions take their toll. There have been countless musicians who never experienced the slightest problem in their teens or twenties, only for the dreaded injuries to affect them later on in life.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Luis_Br » Fri May 22, 2015 2:07 am

Michael.N. wrote:I'm shocked that you think Segovia's wrist was fine. Obviously it was fine for him but I'm not sure you would want to use it in teaching beginners. Quite often he had a very noticeable cant to the right. He may not have always held this position but there's not much doubt that it was a noticeable deviation of the wrist.
I think Segovia's bending is perfectly normal, JW also bends, maybe even more, his technique is also fine in his old age now. So there is something more to generate injury than simple wrist bending.
I think wrong wrist tension is by far a bigger problem and most commonly the real problem rather than Segovia's small bending. But it is more difficult to notice and to correct wrong inside tension and coordination, so simply putting wrist straight is a easier solution to avoid injury.

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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Steve D » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:24 pm

An interesting playing position, but my, my, if somebody wants a really good lesson in masterful control of dynamics, listen to that performance. Thank you Xavier, the romance lives!

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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by bradfordwerner » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:07 pm

It's very possible that many players who have played electric guitar have been influenced by the palm-muting position that pick holders develop. That is definitely where my "deviation" comes from and actually comes in handy for pizzicato passages. It may also have to to with nail shape, my i finger hooks and a slight deviation helps. Of course, everything in moderation, we can't expect everyone to play the same way since our bodies all differ, but we can't go too far either. Thanks for the website plug as well Mark.

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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by hanredman » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:58 am

Michael.N. wrote:I'm shocked that you think Segovia's wrist was fine. Obviously it was fine for him but I'm not sure you would want to use it in teaching beginners. Quite often he had a very noticeable cant to the right. He may not have always held this position but there's not much doubt that it was a noticeable deviation of the wrist.
I do agree that time and age can be a huge factor in whether awkward positions take their toll. There have been countless musicians who never experienced the slightest problem in their teens or twenties, only for the dreaded injuries to affect them later on in life.
Julian Bream definitely has/had a Segovia type right hand technique. When I was still playing regularly, I watched the hand positions of numerous players, because I could never quite get the tone I wanted, consistently. So I tried all kinds of ways and positions for my right hand and wrist. Guess what, the Segovia position gave me the best tone results and consistency. Of course, I never reached any sort of level of performance, where this mattered to anyone, except for my own satisfaction. And, I stopped playing seriously before this, in my opinion, awkward looking technique, could have had any effect health wise.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Dofpic » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:09 am

he is a great player. I watched him win the GFA. I would guess this position would be better than a severely arched wrist the other direction. By the way Parkening blamed his back but what ended his career was Focal Dystonia and a lot of tension in his playing over the years.
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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:36 am

Dofpic wrote:he is a great player. I watched him win the GFA. I would guess this position would be better than a severely arched wrist the other direction. By the way Parkening blamed his back but what ended his career was Focal Dystonia and a lot of tension in his playing over the years.
Tension in fingers or wrist or whatever may begin in the back. Nerves that command those muscles come from the back and neck basis. So back tension may interfere with nerve sensivity generating a foggy perception to the brain and consequent bad control to the periphery. Famous Alexander technique basis is alignement and proper use of back and head (Alexander called it the Primary Control). Several other tensions and bad posture correct by themselves after "Primary Control" is in tune. Or maybe you just need to correct everything at the same time.
I am not saying the back is the root problem with Parkening or whoever, I just would like to point out that the body is a huge organic complex and sometimes the problem arises away from the eye and probably everything was actually connected to each other.

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Re: deviated wrist works well for this guy

Post by JosephRomano » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:36 am

Ouch.

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