Yes, I don't think there's any other sensible way if it's 32nd notes.ksjazzguitar wrote:...I think you just feel them.
Looking at the piece, I still do not think the 8th is the beat. This reminds me of the issue within the 1st Theme/Vari of the Rossiniana No. 1. In the 2nd variation are 32nd notes. The time signature is in 2/4 (just like what we see in the sor). Even though I counted it in four (4/8) my foot was feeling it in 2/4. To me, this is an extremely important concept, because it isn't written in 4/8, its written in 2/4. Thus what Giuliani and in this case Sor have in mind is a meter with 2 pulses. If they wanted 4 pulses, the piece would have been written in 4/4 (As I'm pretty sure that 4/8 wasn't used back then) with the 8ths written as quarters, the 16ths written as 8ths, etc. Looking at the page, there is no signal to me saying that Sor wants a 4 pulsed measure, but rather 2 (as the given time signature suggests.Brock wrote:Looking at Sor's Op29 #5 it's in 2/4 but I'd expect the allegro moderato is based on counting 4 beats to the bar so Kevin's counting eighth note beats is the way forward.
This is what I would do.... It is too early in my musical training to "recognize" and play the patterns without first counting them and writing that count if necessary below the notes (like the words to the song as some teacher on the forum has said in other posts on counting). If there is a dotted note, then it might be something like 1(+)2+...... I put the count when I am not playing in parenthesis so I know to say but not play. Works for me.... might help someone else.I just call the eighth note the beat and count it that way (so now 16ths are "1&2&...", and the 32nds are "1e&a2e&a...") But even complex rhythms, eventually you just recognize the patterns and "feel" them.
If you notice, there are little number "5"s above each cluster of 32nd notes. The measure begins with an 1/8 note. Then there is an 1/8 note rest below the cluster of 5 32nd notes. This constitutes beat 1. The cluster of 32nd notes is starting on the "&" of beat 1 and lasts for half the beat. If you try to count it out as 32nd notes it doesn't add up because there would only be 4 32nd notes allowed to get to the 1/8 note on down of beat 2. I think the number "5"s above the clusters of 32nd notes are telling us to treat these similar to how you would treat a triplet only it would be a quintuplet. I would feel it as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &. I would probably say the word: "quin-tup-ple-et-a" when I came to the 32nd note clusters of 5. So, in measure 2 I would count: 1-quintupleta-2-&-3-&-4-&.glassynails wrote:Thanks everyone. What I meant was how to count them "syllable-wise". Yes Denian, I know that a 32nd is 1/2 of a 16th, but thanks.
I guess, what I mean is a dotted 16th note as someone above mentioned. The dotted 16th note is 6/8 time would be similiar to counting 1 a2, etc.
In the 3rd measure of No.5 in Opus 29 there is a 16/32/16/32 note bundle for the first beat, that's what I'm talking about, I'm just trying to figure out a way to time it. Normally if these were 4 16th notes I would just count 1 e and a. I'm not concerned with names for syllables, who cares? I'm concerned with a way to time it using syllables.
here's the link again --> http://biblioteket.statensmusikverk.se/ebibliotek/boije/p ... %20477.pdf
For the first note (g) I play on the beat of course. Normally IF this was a 16th note (Bundle?) I would play the F# (2nd note) on (e), but of course I have to wait a little longer for a dotted 16th note (precisely a 32nd note longer before I strike the F#). So I guess as far as timing it out I could throw in an extra syllable like say (a). So I'll count the first and second notes as 1 e (a). So I play the (G) on 1 and then the F# on (a). Then, the 3rd note would come on (and). So, I count 1 e (a) and. Then I've got a figure out the rest. I'll do it.
More precisely, you feel the basic time unit (something like en eight) and see to it, the four of the 32 fit equally long into a felt eight (or first counted, if you need it, until you feel it). As has been stated, rhythm is allways an integrated pattern, an though it can be anayzed, finally it has to be felt in its specificity. Only then playing it actually becomes music.ksjazzguitar wrote:
I think you just feel them...
oops. Nevermind....PaulCroft wrote:Robin, you're looking at a different piece. The one in question is actually "Estudio 17" from opus.29, "Douze etudes pour la Guitars"
[pour servir de suite aux douze premiere.] In other words it's a second group of twelve studies by Sor. It didn't help of course,
in finding the correct piece, that the note values were initially decribed incorrectly
Well, before the mob arrives to stone me, I'd like to observe (as others here have) that the way 32nd notes are counted has much to do with the underlying rhythmic structure and the function of those notes within the context of the piece in question. I think in the one I inadvertently looked at (#2) and study #5 (the one in question) the 32nd notes are functioning as ornaments. I would even consider the argument that in study #5 the 32nd notes could be looked at more as "pick ups" to the dotted 1/8 note that [edit:follows it] rather than end of the beat the dotted 1/8 initiates. I'm only speculating since I have not played either of these pieces and have probably never heard them. I'm just going by what I see on paper.PaulCroft wrote:That's not quite the abject apology I was hoping for Robin.Robin wrote: