Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby 60moo » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:58 am

oski79 wrote:Steve Lin, a member here, has recorded La Gatica at a pace which makes it hauntingly lyrical, and it instantly became my wife's favorite version. In fact, she pretty much ordered me to start playing it slower after hearing his version.

I'm with Mrs. Oski on this issue. To my ears also, some of Lauro's pieces do sound much better when played as a graceful waltz. After almost dancing to Maria-Luisa Harth-Bedoya's "El Marabino", I find most others' interpretations sounding rather neurotic by comparison. In fact, the entire "Ayres de Lima" CD by this Peruvian guitarist is a great masterclass in how to bring out the charm when performing Latin music.

Oski, that's your wife's next birthday present :wink:
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Paul Hammer » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:19 am

Paul Croft picked up my Freudian slip - I wonder why?

The CG - even when played baldly


I meant:- the CG when played badly ( or indeed baldly) can charm people.

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby paulcroft » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:23 am

oski79 wrote: That's my main beef with many of the Lauro recordings--they're played too fast. They are mostly waltzes, after all. Steve Lin, a member here, has recorded La Gatica at a pace which makes it hauntingly lyrical


Whilst there is some flexibility in tempo in Lauro it's essential first to really understand the rhythmic, melodic and harmonic structures and how they play against each other so beautifully: La Gatica's opening melody, for example, covers three bars and they could be notated as one bar of 3/2 followed by one bar of 6/8, rather than three bars of 3/4. Once you incorporate that into your playing then a tempo that superficially feels fast can actually be quite laid back. El Nino - in my opinion the most beautiful of Lauro's valses - is another example where the melody is in 3/2, singing over an accompaniment in 3/4 - this time for most of the first section. I teach all of these valse by first dividing them into two parts, with a melody and simple rhythmic/chordal accompaniment.
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:27 pm

mordent wrote:I have a recording of Lauro playing this piece himself

I just read your other thread regarding posting these recordings Mordent. They are taken from the CD, "Lauro Interpreta a Lauro" and are in copyright:

ALCover.jpg

The CD includes his Guitar Concerto. Natalia plays cuatro on a few of the pieces.

The BBC sometimes did this - I have recordings of Morel, Brouwer etc. taken from BBC broadcasts which I later found to be included on LPs or CDs. Which came first I'm not sure - at the time of capture I imagined that they were live performances.

oski79 wrote:They are mostly waltzes, after all.

Yes, but Venezuelan waltzes. Try dancing one (there might be instructions on YTube) and it quickly becomes apparent that a "traditional" waltz approach just won't do.

Here are some metronome settings as per the recordings (one quarter per beat regardless of meter).

BPM
c.152 El Negrito
c.160 La Gatica, La Negra, Maria Luisa
c.168 Angostura, El Marabino, Natalia, Nelly, Yacambu
c.184 Seis por Derecho
c.200 Petronila

Not that slow really but his thorough understanding of the style lends an easy freedom to the pieces suggesting a more relaxed tempo.

Mark
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby oski79 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Yes, but Venezuelan waltzes. Try dancing one (there might be instructions on YTube) and it quickly becomes apparent that a "traditional" waltz approach just won't do.


Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Not that slow really but his thorough understanding of the style lends an easy freedom to the pieces suggesting a more relaxed tempo.


Thanks for the info, Mark. I've come to understand the difference after a bit of research and more listening. After listening to Adam Holzman's Lauro CD, I thought-- Waltzes? By whirling dervishes maybe...

PaulCroft wrote:Whilst there is some flexibility in tempo in Lauro it's essential first to really understand the rhythmic, melodic and harmonic structures and how they play against each other so beautifully: La Gatica's opening melody, for example, covers three bars and they could be notated as one bar of 3/2 followed by one bar of 6/8, rather than three bars of 3/4.


Thanks, Paul. I'll dig a little deeper keeping that in mind...
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We take our own chances, pay our own dues...
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Paul Hammer » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Lauro's El Marabino, I have transcriptions/fingering by Edson Lopes, Alirio Diaz, and Cesar Amaro.

I have personally preferred the Edson Lopes version. I am right in thinking that Diaz's transcription is normally considered the definitive version?

Thanks

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby pascualroch » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:57 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Here are some metronome settings as per the recordings (one quarter per beat regardless of meter).

BPM
c.152 El Negrito
c.160 La Gatica, La Negra, Maria Luisa
c.168 Angostura, El Marabino, Natalia, Nelly, Yacambu
c.184 Seis por Derecho
c.200 Petronila

Not that slow really but his thorough understanding of the style lends an easy freedom to the pieces suggesting a more relaxed tempo.

Mark


Just for clarification, "Seis por Derecho" is not a vals. It is a joropo. On the other hand, I agree that the Lauro’s vals should be played at a slower tempo just to appreciate the beauty in the music. I guess all this rush in the Lauro’s music comes from Alirio Diaz who was trying to follow the earlier Venezuelan piano players who used to play very fast. But there are some others Venezuelan valses that are played in a slower tempo. The main characteristic of the Venezuelan valses is not the tempo is the syncopation.

Regards,

Pascual
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:40 am

pascualroch wrote: I guess all this rush in the Lauro’s music comes from Alirio Diaz who was trying to follow the earlier Venezuelan piano players who used to play very fast.

I'm not so sure about that - I only have two recordings of Alirio Diaz performing Lauro close to hand (Yacambu and Natalia). He performs both at about crotchet = 168, the same as Lauro.

pascualroch wrote:Just for clarification, "Seis por Derecho" is not a vals. It is a joropo.

Yes, I included it on the list (as with the chosen waltzes) simply because it's a piece from Lauro's recordings that most people will recognise.

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Luis_Br » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:58 am

I guess Venezuelan valses have a lot of african influence and through this influence they've developed the joropo and other dances. Their valses are certainly different from a traditional european one.
I have some valses editions marked with 3/4 (6/8), so they indicate 3/4 but with 6/8 in parenthesis, which tells a lot about the interpretation and we can listen to it in Lauro's own playing. And I guess the alternation with 6/8 used in the style of playing is the reason for one the piece's name "seis por derecho" ("six by right").
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby pascualroch » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:01 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
pascualroch wrote: I guess all this rush in the Lauro’s music comes from Alirio Diaz who was trying to follow the earlier Venezuelan piano players who used to play very fast.

I'm not so sure about that - I only have two recordings of Alirio Diaz performing Lauro close to hand (Yacambu and Natalia). He performs both at about crotchet = 168, the same as Lauro.
Mark

Mark,
I am not sure about that either. When you compare Lauro's playing with Alirio's, you will notice that Alirio plays a more more faster than Lauro. While Alirio is rushing , Lauro is singing. I think there is a bit difference.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that the Venezuelan vals characteristic is not the speed. You can listen to other Venezuelan valses and realize how variable the speed is. Alirio Diaz has several recordings on Venezuelan music and the valses tempo range from 50 to 200. So, the tempo is not a good descriptor for the Venezuelan valses. However all of the Venezuelan valses are playing with syncopation which is its main characteristic. With that being said, it is not a crime to play Lauro's valses at a lower tempo. Every body who know the young Alirio, knows that he likes to play fast and he has the ability to play fast and at the same time bring out the beauty of the music. But not every is Alirio.

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:45 am

pascualroch wrote:When you compare Lauro's playing with Alirio's, you will notice that Alirio plays a more more faster than Lauro.

I fully agree that Diaz's playing feels rushed where Lauro is more relaxed. There's more than "a bit" of a difference; and I understand completely what you mean when referring to the stylistic character of the Venezuelan waltz. I just don't think that you can lay the blame for the current trend for speedy interpretations entirely at Diaz's feet when he played at almost the same tempo as Lauro himself on some recordings.

I'm more inclined to think that it comes down to the general misinterpretation of the instruction "allegro" which many guitarists appear to read as "prestissimo". Having said that, I used to duet with a Venezuelan flautist. He went like the clappers - way faster than any guitarist playing the same material and would reprimand me for being too slow.

For reference I timed them - I found the slowest and fastest recording I could of Diaz to compare:

Natalia - Lauro 3:03, Diaz 2:46 & 2:57
Yacambu - Lauro 3:07, Diaz 2:39 & 3:01

Incidentally the two slower Diaz recordings still sound rushed in comparison with Lauro.

Maybe someone can count the measures and calculate beats per minute from those figures?

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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby pascualroch » Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:04 pm

Hey Mark,

I agree with you 100%.

Pascual
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Freddy Mora » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:29 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:It's just short for "armonico" which is Italian for harmonic.

Mark

Not Italian in this case my friend... That particular edition is in spanish, and the word conincides in spelling be it in spanish or italian, Armonico in italian, and Armónico in spanish...
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby Freddy Mora » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:36 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Hmm,

where did you get your copy from Gazmungus? I have several versions of "Natalia" and they all (including the manuscript - see below) have just one harmonic.
Lauro MS 1.jpg

Notice - it was originally dedicated to Raul Borges not Natalia.

Mark


Antonio Lauro named waltzes after family and places, and some very good friends. When he spoke of his own compositions he would say they were dedicated to the people he named the pice after. Natalia is Lauro's daughter. The dedication on this publishing is also True. Raul Borges was Lauro's teacher and one of the founders of the classical guitar movement in Venezuela.
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Re: Natalia - Vals Venezolano #3 - Antonio Lauro

Postby paulcroft » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:35 am

Mora wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:It's just short for "armonico" which is Italian for harmonic.

Mark




Not Italian in this case my friend...



..."friend"?! That can't be right - I know for a fact that Mark doesn't have any. I bet you don't even know him.

PP.
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