The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
riffmeister
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:15 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by riffmeister » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:43 pm

larryguitar wrote:
riffmeister wrote:I think MV was using an oil varnish finish in the 60's. The '68 was also refinished....by MV himself as indicated on the second label. Love the Pau Ferro back/sides on that guitar. I've seen that wood used quite often on his guitars between 1968-1972. I have a '71 with that wood, and that's the year he started using a larger body with a more rounded plantilla. Really nice looking and sounding guitar!
Ah, I didn't realize that Velazquez used Pau Ferro. The Papazian I just sold had Pau Ferro sides and back. It's very strong stuff, although it seems a bit heavier than Indian or Brazilian. I like Indian a lot because it does not crack, according to Don Manuel himself.

How much larger are the bodies on the late 60s to early 70s guitars when compared to my 2002 Torres model? Not much, I think, but you're the person to ask. ;-)
Your 2002 Torres guitar is just 1-2 mm smaller than his standard size guitar, and the larger body instruments from the 70's are 1-2 mm larger than standard. And the plantilla shape from the 70's looks different.....more rounded shoulders and tail.

Here's my '71......larger more rounded body and Pau Ferro back/sides:

Image

Image

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:01 pm

simonm wrote:I can't see the 66 you are talking about on the bay. I see a 62 (from Japan) and a 53 (from NJ). On the Germany vioworld website there is a 66 for sale for an asking prive of 8,800 Euros and it mentions a touch up by Fritz Ober, so I guess that is the one you are seeing on the auction site.
Hmmm, I don't see any mention of a touchup by Fritz Ober, the refinishing was done by someone else. The e - b a y seller is: luckyplucker772014 Is it ok for me to put that here? Perhaps you can't see them from Germany because both guitars say they ship to the United States, meaning nowhere else, I think.

Thanks for the explanation, Riff. Yes, yours is certainly Pau Ferro. Nice guitar. I wonder if Papazian and Velazquez worked from the same stock of Pau Ferro.

riffmeister
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:15 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by riffmeister » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:16 pm

larryguitar wrote:Thanks for the explanation, Riff. Yes, yours is certainly Pau Ferro. Nice guitar. I wonder if Papazian and Velazquez worked from the same stock of Pau Ferro.
Yeah, I've wondered the same thing about Papazian and Velazquez sourcing the same wood. But from the pics I've seen, the grain seems "crazier" on the Velazquez guitars, compared to more even straight grain on the Papazian instruments.

Earl Klugh recorded his first four albums on two Velazquez guitars, a '57 spruce/Indian and a '70 spruce/PF. This is a pic of him with the '70 sp/PF guitar:

Image

simonm
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7726
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Germany, Würzburg. Spain, IB

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by simonm » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:52 pm

larryguitar wrote:[... Perhaps you can't see them from Germany because both guitars say they ship to the United States, meaning nowhere else, I think.

...
Motly likely. I had a look just now through my work vpn, jumping in via a US entry point. I could see the quitar you mentioned. So coincidentally there are two 1966 models for sale one in Europe and one in the US The one on vioworld is most likely Riffy's. (Rodger's tuners and a Fritz Ober touch up).

User avatar
petermc61
Posts: 6380
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:11 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by petermc61 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:28 pm

Larry

The fake Malapannis I won but never got is still giving me much satisfaction!!

Peter

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:46 pm

petermc61 wrote:Larry

The fake Malapannis I won but never got is still giving me much satisfaction!!

Peter

Peter,

Glad to hear! Dream instruments are the best. I switch back and forth between this '66 and a Romanillos I once inquired about but which had already been sold. I never hear a bad sound out of either guitar. Perfection.

Bill
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by Bill » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:52 pm

There is a 66 MV with a very similar description on a famous auction site. Is this the same guitar?

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:56 pm

Bill wrote:There is a 66 MV with a very similar description on a famous auction site. Is this the same guitar?

Oh, NOT AGAIN!!!! You see, that 1966 has been refinished, so this is an auction using old pictures, the same deal I fell for the last time around.

Others, please help me verify that this one is a fake. I don't want to jump to conclusions but that Heritage Auction text is the same as the fake one.

Riff, are you around?

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:56 pm

"1966 Manuel Velazquez all original, virtually unplayed, original owner and single maker masterpiece. This is a beautiful, extremely clean guitar handmade by Manuel Velazquez himself, the real deal. Finish is original. German/Austrian spruce top and Brasilian Rosewood back and sides. Minor faint nicks and scratches primarily to top and side plate from removal from case and very limited play. No visible play wear to the Ebony neck or frets. Original hard case included. Heritage Auction Rating of Condition is EXCELLENT: guitar fully functional. This piece was purchased in 1966 by my Grandmother in NYC as a gift for my mother, and was used only sparingly and has been well taken care of by me. The guitar shows FAINT cosmetic blemishes due to playing and storing. USA bidders only please. Shipping free. Thank you."

This grandmother story tricked me the last time.

User avatar
Guitar-ded
Posts: 1838
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by Guitar-ded » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:28 pm

FWIW; Beverly in NY has one made on the cusp of 1968/9 if anyone is actually looking.
Getting better bit by bit, day by day.

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:49 pm

So, I sent a note to the seller asking him to post a picture of the guitar with today's newspaper on top of it. We'll see if he responds but it's hard to believe he will.

Could other people fire off some questions to the seller? Should somebody call e - b a y?

User avatar
petermc61
Posts: 6380
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:11 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by petermc61 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:32 pm

I might have to buy the fake Velazquez to add to my fake Malapannis!

User avatar
Kent
Posts: 2629
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by Kent » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:37 pm

petermc61 wrote:I might have to buy the fake Velazquez to add to my fake Malapannis!
Only Peter can also have imaginary GAS! :lol:

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:01 pm

petermc61 wrote:I might have to buy the fake Velazquez to add to my fake Malapannis!
I was hoping you would come forward to add to your collection of fake, non-existent guitars. ;-)

larryguitar
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:03 pm
Location: New York City

Re: The Case of the Fake Auction for a Velazquez

Post by larryguitar » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:01 pm

The auction ends in one day, by the way.

Return to “Public Space”