Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:18 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:15 pm
Jez wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:31 am

...

I’ve posted #2 below, took quite a while to get
the right take, and I’ve been in a number of minds about what to do with the open G. The options I saw were to -

1. Let it ring
2. Play to strict timing
3. Let it ring for the first two notes but damp on while playing the last note.

I opted for number 3. It may seem a bit of a strange choice, but I discovered it by accident and thought it was the most aesthetically pleasing. I liked the sound of 1, but it felt a bit sloppy and gave the impression of a lack of control, and 2 made it feel too jolting, but that may just be my poor articulation!

Sor Opus 60 no.2_mp3.wma
Very nice this #2 of yours, Jez, quite enjoyable to listen to. As for damping open strings here and there, I absolutely second David in his comments about this subject. From the time of the original publication, having typo errors themselves for sure, to the present days, so many editors put their hands in his works that unless Sor himself comes out of his tomb and tells us how he meant his music to be played, there is no way for us to know for sure how to. Nevertheless, in my Chanterelle edition of Fernando Sor " The Complete Studies for Guitar", just before the start of scores of Opus 60, Sor is quoted as saying (translated from the original French edition):

The first six lessons serve only as exercises for finding where each note is to be produced. Nevertheless, by following the indicated fingering and being careful not to lift any finger until it is needed elsewhere, or until the string it is on must be played at a lower fret or as an open string, the student will automatically acquire the habit of positioning the left hand correctly.
Lessons with no tempo indication should be studied slowly, increasing speed progressively as self-confidence is gained.


Therefore, though opens strings are not mentioned specifically, it seems that Fernando Sor thought there is no need to be over concerned with the damping of fretted notes. May be because in those days, with gut strings, guitars didn't have much sustain and the notes would decay more rapidly. As for me, I mostly concern myself with bass open string notes, those have indeed to be damped as, otherwise, they keep on ringing and the effect is noticeable. So, in this particular piece, although I use the "let it ring" approach most of the time, I do damp, with my right thumb, the open C in m.16 (and, moreover, there is a rest sign in the third beat of the measure), the open E in m.19, that I damp just before the start of m.20 and, again, the open E of m.23 which I damp with my thumb at the same time as I lift my finger 3 from the G in the 6th string in m.24. And that is all. As for the open Gs, well, I simply let it ring and as I play the piece a bit faster than you, they are not that noticeable.

Any way, this is done, congratulations. The #3 is next :D.

With this new rendition of yours, the table of posted records (TPR) is now as follows:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 08Nov18.png
Hi Jorge,

Many thanks for your positive feedback and glad you enjoyed. It’s reassuring to know the work is paying off. These pieces certainly expose your naked technique and allow for a great evaluation of one’s playing.

I have the chanterelle edition too and noted Sor’s comments as you outlined above, which led me to believe I may be dreaming up the ringing issue. But as you’ve said, historically the instruments were different, so our new fangled boxes have created a problem, so to speak. As always it seems best to go with the ears! I figure if it’s controlled, deliberate and sonically pleasing it works!

I recorded #3 last night and have attached a link to my google drive below. I hope it works, as I couldn’t upload here due to the file being more than 1mb.

This piece took more work than 1 or 2, and it was a real challenge to get it to flow right. I’m happier with my tone here though and think I’ve solved a problem I had recently with a scratchy i finger. In restrospect I also think I milked the rubato a little at the end which I regret, so I may re-record in the future. I hope you enjoy -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v9qHaj ... p=drivesdk

Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:50 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:11 pm
As stated in one of my last posts, it is my intention to review all the records of Sor's Opus 60 I've posted in these last two years and replace them by new versions if I feel they can be improved.

I've listened, then, to my V4 of Sor's Opus 60 #1 posted on June 10th, 2017, and though the quality it is acceptable, I now play it a bit more lively and it is, perhaps, a bit more enjoyable. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my 1979 Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (4 months, 23 days old and 83,49 hours of playing time). The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. No special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file. You will notice that this Matsuoka guitar has very pronounced basses. May be a different string set, who knows, will attenuate a bit this characteristic...


Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #1 (V5).wma

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #1 (V5).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Nov18.png


The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

This sounds great Jorge, I really like the pace and your tone!

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:53 pm

Jez wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:50 pm
...

This sounds great Jorge, I really like the pace and your tone!
Thank you, Jez, you are very kind :D
Jez wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:18 pm
...

Hi Jorge,
...

I recorded #3 last night and have attached a link to my google drive below. I hope it works, as I couldn’t upload here due to the file being more than 1mb.

This piece took more work than 1 or 2, and it was a real challenge to get it to flow right. I’m happier with my tone here though and think I’ve solved a problem I had recently with a scratchy i finger. In retrospect I also think I milked the rubato a little at the end which I regret, so I may re-record in the future. I hope you enjoy.
...
I did enjoy this #3 rendition of yours, Jez. It's clean, the tone is superb (I listened to it with my Bose III loudspeaker :D) and the pace is good enough. Perhaps you exaggerated a bit on the rubato here and there, but I don't think it justifies a re-recording. I must say it didn't surprise me to know that you felt this piece more difficult than the two previous ones. Indeed it is and still today I find difficult to play, cleanly, the descending notes of m.15. This is because I don't practice scales, I know... :oops:.

You say in your post that you could not upload your record (in .wma, I presume) because it exceeded the 1 MB acceptable size, by this Forum, for an audio file and this is indeed an annoying limitation. However, if you submit your original file to an Audio editor, say, Audacity (free to download), you can then produce .wma files (or .mp3 and other standards) with lower sample ratings that, with no noticeable degradation in the quality of the sound, can be made smaller than the 1 MB limit.

Any way, time now to move into the #4...

The Table of Posted Records (TPR) is now as follows:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Nov18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:18 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:53 pm

I did enjoy this #3 rendition of yours, Jez. It's clean, the tone is superb (I listened to it with my Bose III loudspeaker :D) and the pace is good enough. Perhaps you exaggerated a bit on the rubato here and there, but I don't think it justifies a re-recording. I must say it didn't surprise me to know that you felt this piece more difficult than the two previous ones. Indeed it is and still today I find difficult to play, cleanly, the descending notes of m.15. This is because I don't practice scales, I know... :oops:.

You say in your post that you could not upload your record (in .wma, I presume) because it exceeded the 1 MB acceptable size, by this Forum, for an audio file and this is indeed an annoying limitation. However, if you submit your original file to an Audio editor, say, Audacity (free to download), you can then produce .wma files (or .mp3 and other standards) with lower sample ratings that, with no noticeable degradation in the quality of the sound, can be made smaller than the 1 MB limit.

Any way, time now to move into the #4...

The Table of Posted Records (TPR) is now as follows:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Nov18.png

Thanks for the great feedback! Yes the rubato was a bit too much, a lesson there for me in restraint :)

Funnily enough I didn't find the scale passages difficult, as I've practiced a lot of scales in the past. For me it was more of a conceptual difficulty, I found it hard to make the piece sound as one connected idea. Interesting how we can all struggle with different items on the same piece.

I was working on #4 last night and strangely I'm finding it easier to assimilate that #3. The second part needs a bit of work, but I think I'll have it down in the next few sessions and look forward to posting soon.

Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 am

Hi all,

Please see my recording of #4 -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VaV8IO ... p=drivesdk

I meant to thanks you Jorge for the advice on using Audactiy. I would choose that route but opted to keep to the google drive as I’m doing this all on my phone, so hope the link redirecting isn’t an inconvenience.

Would be very grateful for any feedback on the performance. These simple tunes are difficult to make sound good!

Re #5, I started working on it last night and I’m wondering what people’s approaches have been to the bass notes, I.e. How pronounced should they be and should there be any muting that goes on?

Thanks in advance

User avatar
David Norton
Posts: 4677
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Hello Jez,

I've just had a listen to #3 and #4. Well played on both of them with good clarity. I hear #3 in a more strict rhythm, but your approach is valid as well.

The coming #5 only has 4 rests in the whole thing, at section endings. The basses should be struck with sufficient force to sustain but not be out of balance with the rest of the music. The bugaboo comes with #6, where some serious decisions need to be made about "honoring rests" (or ignoring them). There's a valid perception that #5 and #6 are meant as a contrasting pairing, A-minor and few rests versus C-major (the relative major tonality to #5) and many many rests. Then also the differences of 180 years of luthiery developments have to be considered, there was far less over-ringing on Sor's guitar than on a modern box. So #6 can be a real conundrum. And by-the-by, there are strong arguments made in prior pages for either approach, so recognize up front that no matter which way you go, a measurable percent of readers/listeners will differ with your decision.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:49 pm

Jez wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 am
Hi all,

Please see my recording of #4 -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VaV8IO ... p=drivesdk

I meant to thanks you Jorge for the advice on using Audactiy. I would choose that route but opted to keep to the google drive as I’m doing this all on my phone, so hope the link redirecting isn’t an inconvenience.

Would be very grateful for any feedback on the performance. These simple tunes are difficult to make sound good!

Re #5, I started working on it last night and I’m wondering what people’s approaches have been to the bass notes, I.e. How pronounced should they be and should there be any muting that goes on?

Thanks in advance
Hi Jez:

Yes, an excellent rendition of the #4 - god tone, good tempo and superb recording. Only one remark, though: it seems to me that the last note of m.22, an F#, is being played as a 16th instead of an 8th. Please check.

I'm not surprised you find the #4 easier than the #3. The #3 sounds "strange" to me, whereas the #4 has an intrinsic musicality, it gets easily in your ears. And if you try to play it really slow, as I did in the beginning of the Project when I couldn't play it faster :lol:, then it becomes sort of "dramatic" :D and quite pleasing as well.

There is no problem at all in using Google Drive to store your file. One suggestion, though. In naming the file, you could use the "Insert URL" editing tool that appears on top of the text being edited so that the name of the Opus piece appears explicitly in your post:

Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #4

With this new rendition of yours, the Table of Posted (TPR) records, becomes then:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 23Nov18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:26 pm

Continuing my review of all the records of Sor's Opus 60 I've posted in these last two years and replace them by new versions if I feel they can be improved, I've listened, then, to my V1 of Sor's Opus 60 #2 posted on December 27th, 2016. Though it is not that bad, I now play it in a faster and firmer way. See then, please, the corresponding rendition below, recorded yesterday.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just one day old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. No special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #2 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #2 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 24Nov18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:20 pm

I listened to my V1 rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #3 posted in January 13th, 2017 and remembered what Rob MacKillop said about it in his post dated January 3rd, 2017:

#3 - I love this one, and can't believe some of the comments about it here. I use p, i, throughout. Imagine it was written by Bach for cello, and play with energy and direction. It should be a fun piece to play.

I tried, then, to play it as he said, with energy and direction as if it were a cello piece written by Bach. Not sure if I succeed, though. See then, please, my V2 below, recorded this morning.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just three days old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate bad sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #3 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #3 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 25Nov18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:20 pm

David Norton wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:11 pm
Hello Jez,

I've just had a listen to #3 and #4. Well played on both of them with good clarity. I hear #3 in a more strict rhythm, but your approach is valid as well.

The coming #5 only has 4 rests in the whole thing, at section endings. The basses should be struck with sufficient force to sustain but not be out of balance with the rest of the music. The bugaboo comes with #6, where some serious decisions need to be made about "honoring rests" (or ignoring them). There's a valid perception that #5 and #6 are meant as a contrasting pairing, A-minor and few rests versus C-major (the relative major tonality to #5) and many many rests. Then also the differences of 180 years of luthiery developments have to be considered, there was far less over-ringing on Sor's guitar than on a modern box. So #6 can be a real conundrum. And by-the-by, there are strong arguments made in prior pages for either approach, so recognize up front that no matter which way you go, a measurable percent of readers/listeners will differ with your decision.
Hi David,

Thank you for the feedback. I did wonder if I should take such an approach with #3. I've been quite influenced by a recording of the studies by Enea Leone and his approach to #3 is less strict too. Maybe this is what helped make the piece feel a little more natural, as I struggled with it conceptually.

I've scanned #5 and can see the four rests you are referring to. Taking these into consideration, and a respect to balance, I feel more confident in how to approach so thank you for the head's up. I can sometimes be blind to the obvious so your comments are most appreciated.

I've had a little nose and dry run at #6 and must confess it seems like a minefield. I might take extra long on #5 just to put off #6 for a bit! :oops:

Jez
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 pm
Location: Midland, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jez » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:26 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:49 pm
Hi Jez:

Yes, an excellent rendition of the #4 - god tone, good tempo and superb recording. Only one remark, though: it seems to me that the last note of m.22, an F#, is being played as a 16th instead of an 8th. Please check.

I'm not surprised you find the #4 easier than the #3. The #3 sounds "strange" to me, whereas the #4 has an intrinsic musicality, it gets easily in your ears. And if you try to play it really slow, as I did in the beginning of the Project when I couldn't play it faster :lol:, then it becomes sort of "dramatic" :D and quite pleasing as well.

There is no problem at all in using Google Drive to store your file. One suggestion, though. In naming the file, you could use the "Insert URL" editing tool that appears on top of the text being edited so that the name of the Opus piece appears explicitly in your post:

Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #4

With this new rendition of yours, the Table of Posted (TPR) records, becomes then:


Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 23Nov18.png
Hi Jorge,

Many thanks for the feedback. I have scoured the score and yes, you are indeed correct in my mistake. I hadn't even noticed that in the score! Still a way to go in my finer reading skills :oops: I'm impressed by your thorough knowledge of the piece to recognize that.

Thanks for the pointer on the "Insert URL" function, I hadn't realized it was there. I promise future posts to be neater :)

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:11 pm

I've listened to my V5 rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #4 posted in February 25th, 2017 and it is not that bad. However, in my V6 below, recorded late last night, I've added some vibrato during the repetitions. Moreover, I played it in a slightly slower tempo, projecting a more appropriate sober mood, as, it seems to me, this tune is a sad one. As in V5, this new V6 was entirely played in apoyando (rest stroke) mode.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just four days old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate one not so well succeeded section, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #4 (V6).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #4 (V6).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 27Nov18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
Posts: 364
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:44 pm

David Norton wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:17 am
Jorge, I congratulate you on crossing the Finish Line on this project. The sense of accomplishment is significant, no? At least this is how I felt when I posted #25 some weeks ago.

To the recording itself. Very intelligent of you to take the Llobet path for the harmonics, not the Sor. And since we have Sor's own words from his Method that the use of artificial harmonics was acceptable to him, even though he himself didn't use that approach, that is authority enough to cast aside the Purist Naysayers if any exist.

You need to revisit the second set of harmonics in the first section, there's a wrong note in there somewhere. And, as you recognize, the recording does not flow so well overall at this point. That can come with due time.

For now, I raise my glass in your honour, and salute your accomplishment of #25. Saude! We can drink on the sidelines and watch the others come across the line at their own pace.
Hi Jorge - I'd like to add my congratulations to David's - it a lot of work to do as you've done. I like seeing your clear desire to continue to improve these pieces as well.

And a side-note to David: I love reading your gentle outbursts regarding "purist naysayers", rests and the general problems regarding composer intentions and the issues with scores etc. It's a much jollier way to converse on the subject than sometimes occurs here.

Anyway - with respect to 25 - I find Sor's natural harmonics to be substantially easier to play than the artificial harmonics (which are themselves not too difficult), but even so, I have two issues with Sor's approach: 1) it is harder to shape the melodic phrase when alternating between the difficult harmonics near frets 3 and 4 and those at 5 and 12. and 2) given the nature of the instrument's temperament, the natural harmonics are just not as in tune - esp at 4.

But up to now, taking the path of least resistance leads to natural harmonics for me...

So where does this put me on the purist naysayer spectrum?

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:00 pm

mainterm wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:44 pm
...

Hi Jorge - I'd like to add my congratulations to David's - it a lot of work to do as you've done. I like seeing your clear desire to continue to improve these pieces as well.

And a side-note to David: I love reading your gentle outbursts regarding "purist naysayers", rests and the general problems regarding composer intentions and the issues with scores etc. It's a much jollier way to converse on the subject than sometimes occurs here.

Anyway - with respect to 25 - I find Sor's natural harmonics to be substantially easier to play than the artificial harmonics (which are themselves not too difficult), but even so, I have two issues with Sor's approach: 1) it is harder to shape the melodic phrase when alternating between the difficult harmonics near frets 3 and 4 and those at 5 and 12. and 2) given the nature of the instrument's temperament, the natural harmonics are just not as in tune - esp at 4.

But up to now, taking the path of least resistance leads to natural harmonics for me...

So where does this put me on the purist naysayer spectrum?
Thank you, mainterm :D. Indeed, I was quite busy during these last two years :) and I'm particularly grateful to you - were not for your encouragement and guidance along the way and I don't know whether I would have succeeded in reaching the end of the this Project. Now, while I wait for January to launch another one, Sor's Opus 35, I use my time to improve and re-record the Opus 60 pieces and, well, to look also to the initial pieces of the Opus 35 - still Elementary but now with a similar degree of difficulty as the last ones of the corresponding grade of the Opus 60 - so that I can have some material to start the new Project.

I must say I also enjoy the somewhat spirited and despaired comments of David concerning Fernando Sor's use of rests, but, in the end, I agree with him, if it sounds good, it's OK.

Now, the harmonics in the #25...:( I battled with them for more than a month and, I recognize, still cannot play them in tempo. I decided, therefore, to let it go for the moment and return to it again at the end of my current review of all the Opus 60 pieces. Bby that time I'll, for sure, be recording as well the first few pieces of Opus 35 :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:26 pm

Dear Friends:

November is gone and it is now time to publish the corresponding statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this past month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Nov_2018.png

The number of posts and views increased somewhat when compared with the previous month of October, but is similar to September. The joining of Jez to this Project contributed a lot to the interest this Project still instils in a considerable number of Forum Members. Jez is clearly no beginner, as he recorded the first four pieces in a single month! I warmly welcome him :D and look forward to his new renditions. As usual, those in the graph with zero posts posted sometime in the past but not in this past November. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so that we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows represents the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month. As already said, the number of posts and views in October decreased when compared to September, returning to values comparable to those of August.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Nov_2018.png

As for new records posted in October, there were four, all posted by Jez :D . Repeated records of the same piece are not accounted for (my own re-records, for instance), only the date of the newest rendition replaces the previous date in the Table of Posted Records (TPR) below.

Monthly Posted Records, Dec17-Dec18.png

The following graph presents the Table of Posted Records (TPR) as of November 30th:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 30Nov18.png

Please notice the grading line showing the Elementary, Novice and Intermediate pieces in the Opus 60. Please notice also that this is just a picture file. However, by pointing at any individual cell in the corresponding TPR Excel file stored in my Google Drive, the reader is directed to the corresponding post in this thread where he will have available not only the audio file but all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

Finally, the next graphic depicts the total number of monthly posts and views in this Topic since Dec 2017.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec17-Nov18.png

As the graphic shows, and already stated, the number of post and views in this Topic in November is similar to those of September. I thank you all for your support to this Project and that's all for now.

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Return to “Public Space”