Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:37 am

Continuing my review of past records, I've listened to my V2 rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #5 posted in July 7th, 2017 and I realize that, nowadays, I play this piece a little better - see, please, my newest record below. I've upped the beat a little bit, from 1/8 = 235 bpm to 260 bpm. In general, I think the notes and the slurs are cleaner than before... :D.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, again, my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just ten days old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5 (V3).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 03Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 1019
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:24 pm

My V2 rendition of this piece, posted in March 13th, 2017, was not so well received by my peers here in the Forum, the reason being that I was not following a strict tempo as one usually expects from compositions from the Classic period. So, I went back to my guitar and I posted then, on the following day, March 14th, another version, the V3, which was now well accepted. However, having listened to both versions today, I still think the V2 was better, as the V3 is too "robot" like :D. So, I just recorded another rendition of the #6, below, slight faster, more assertive and also, I would say, more musical. I hope you enjoy it.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, again, my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just twelve days old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V4).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V4).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 04Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 1019
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:03 pm

My first and, up to now, only rendition of this piece was posted in April 24th, 2017. It was very hard for me to learn it at the time, it took me almost seven weeks :(. Its sections have all different "rhythms" that I couldn't master easily and for the first time in the series, an ornament totally new to me, an acciaccatura, popped up in m.12. The difficulty was such that, while working on it I and proceeded to learn as well the next three pieces in the series, the #8, #9 and #10, this last one being posted in the same day the #7. Anyway, looking back now to that first rendition of the #7, and continuing to play it as part of my daily practice, I now do it more fluently and faster than before (perhaps too fast, I don't know...). So, there you have, below, a V2 of the #7. I hope you enjoy it.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, again, my 1972 Kuniharu Nobe #8 with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings just fourteen days old. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions of the audio file.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #7 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #7 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 06Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:01 am

Hi Jorge,
I hear a very good confidence and grounded-ness to your playing and a nice consistent sound, and you can handle the more upbeat tempo without really struggling to do so. Definitely a marked improvement from the first time around, so keep up the good work!

With regards to number 7: Since you mention the tricky rhythms that are in there though, I don't know if I'm hearing them all as I would interpret them from the score in this version.

Sounds like the F in the 2nd beat of measure 3 is held for too long, like perhaps you've hesitated as you prepare for the 16th notes coming up in the next beat.
Similarly it sounds like the B natural in the third beat of the third measure of the second section is being held too long.
Last one that really jumps out is the dotted rhythm (what is that, dotted 16th note with a 32nd note? I don't have the score in front of me ATM so I'm guessing based on it being 3/8 time), I think you're holding the dotted 16th for too long.

In those three places, the extra length you've given to some of those notes means that you fall out of the beat and I can't count a steady three in those places. I would maybe slow it back down and set your metronome to mark your 16th notes to get a more sub-divided look at how you're synchronized with the beat.
There are a couple other spots where that happens but they are more minor, so I would look mainly at those three and I think if you have those fixed the more minor ones should disappear on their own.

I hope my comments are helpful!
I have been very dormant in this thread since I have meandered around lots of different pieces by lots of different composers. I still have the goal of playing all pieces in Sor op.. 60, 44, 31 and 35, and I'm still making progress on that front though a bit privately for now. Hopefully I'll have more to share soon!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:23 pm

powderedtoastman wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:01 am
Hi Jorge,
I hear a very good confidence and grounded-ness to your playing and a nice consistent sound, and you can handle the more upbeat tempo without really struggling to do so. Definitely a marked improvement from the first time around, so keep up the good work!

With regards to number 7: Since you mention the tricky rhythms that are in there though, I don't know if I'm hearing them all as I would interpret them from the score in this version.

Sounds like the F in the 2nd beat of measure 3 is held for too long, like perhaps you've hesitated as you prepare for the 16th notes coming up in the next beat.
Similarly it sounds like the B natural in the third beat of the third measure of the second section is being held too long.
Last one that really jumps out is the dotted rhythm (what is that, dotted 16th note with a 32nd note? I don't have the score in front of me ATM so I'm guessing based on it being 3/8 time), I think you're holding the dotted 16th for too long.

In those three places, the extra length you've given to some of those notes means that you fall out of the beat and I can't count a steady three in those places. I would maybe slow it back down and set your metronome to mark your 16th notes to get a more sub-divided look at how you're synchronized with the beat.
There are a couple other spots where that happens but they are more minor, so I would look mainly at those three and I think if you have those fixed the more minor ones should disappear on their own.

I hope my comments are helpful!
I have been very dormant in this thread since I have meandered around lots of different pieces by lots of different composers. I still have the goal of playing all pieces in Sor op.. 60, 44, 31 and 35, and I'm still making progress on that front though a bit privately for now. Hopefully I'll have more to share soon!
Hi powderedtoastman:
Thank you so much for your comments, they are most welcome. Going now through them...
  1. The duration of the F in m.2 (1st section):
    you are entirely right, I realise now that I've always played it with an obviously wrong value.
  2. The duration of the B in m.11 (2nd section):
    yes,you are right again, I sort of stumble a bit just before the acciaccatura.
  3. Your third observation refers certainly to the duration of the dotted notes in ms.25-26 and ms.27-28 (4th section), no? Yes, I noticed now that I have to play these measures in a more fluent way, no hesitations.
Quite helpful comments, indeed, powderedtoastman thank you again. I'm now going back to this #7, with a metronome on hand :D, and I hope to be able to post a V3 soon without these mistakes.

Finally, we would love to have you back to this Project and keep on posting your renditions of Sor's Opus 60 pieces. I intend to keep on reviewing the pieces I posted early in the Project, so I'll be around still for quite some time. Also, next January I'll start a new Project but now with Sor's Opus 35, whose pieces seem to be, in general, a bit more demanding than those of Opus 60. I'm counting on you to participate in this new Project as well :D.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:15 pm

Hi Jorge,
Yes I have already done a little bit from Op. 35 and would love to post them so I will stay tuned for that thread!

Op. 60 I haven't ventured far beyond no. 14 or so but I have some catching up to do on recording the ones I've done so far.

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:14 pm

Jorge
Loving what you do, ive already done a bit of opus 35 so cant wait to hear!
Also loving Carcassi if you want a different composer to follow.
If you could make all the threads have the same words "Let's learn... together, shall we?" Would that help us find these learn together threads from search box? Else perhaps ask moderators to make it grouped topic? For me dropping in and out its helpful to find thread quickly... just a thought...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:33 pm

Thank you, Peskyendeavour, you are very kind. I don't play anything from Carcassi but everybody agrees he is also a must for us, learners. As to start a learning thread with one of his Opuses, well, may be, but not for now. The next one will be Sor's Opus 35, to start January 2019. Concerning the name for this new thread, well, a "Let's learn Sor's Opus 35 together, shall we?" might make searching this type of thread easier, but I'm afraid similar names might also be confusing and people might post, by mistake, in the wrong thread. My intention, therefore, is to have a similar phrasing as the current Opus 60 Project, but not exactly the same. As for your searches, you just have to bookmark the Topic and, whenever someone posts in it you will receive an e-mail with a direct link to the new post, which will also go into "Your Posts" list :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 1019
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:37 am

powderedtoastman wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:01 am
Hi Jorge,
...

With regards to number 7: Since you mention the tricky rhythms that are in there though, I don't know if I'm hearing them all as I would interpret them from the score in this version.
...

I hope my comments are helpful!
...
Your comments were quite helpful indeed, powderedtoastman, thank you. I went back to my guitar and this time I worked with a metronome (an iPhone app whose beats I could hear in and AirPod in my left ear :D) to make sure I stayed within tempo. I also decreased the speed to 1/8 = 150 bpm. M. Jean-François Delcamp plays it at around 140 bpm. His rendition is wonderful, although he does not seem too worried in keeping a strict rhythm or the value of the rests between the sections (as a learner, I don't dare to do it, it might be misinterpreted :lol:). As a by-product of this revision, I also discovered that in the first beat of m.14 I was playing a C treble instead of an E :oops:. Anyway, there you have, below, my V3 of the #7, where, I expect, the wrong durations of the notes you pointed out are now correct. But, please, let me know if there is still anything that needs to be ironed out :).

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, this time, my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014), also with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings, 2 months and 22 days old and 51,86 hours of effective playing time. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #7 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #7 (V3).mp3

So, now, the table of posted records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 12Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
[/quote]
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:12 pm

Very nice Jorge, yes that fixes the rhythmic spots that jumped out at me last time.

The dotted rhythm on the A minor section still sounds like you're having a little trouble keeping it tight but to be honest I struggle with that one myself. Recently a teacher noticed the same issue for me on a different piece I was playing, and suggested that whichever finger was to strike the shorter note (in this case the 32nd note) should be hanging out in front of the string before the preceding finger plays, so you can use sympathetic motion to get it started on that motion during the dotted note... that's a moderately advanced and specific detail so I don't recommend going back and doing the whole thing over again right away for it!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:34 pm

Many, many thanks, powderedtoastman, for taking the time to listen to my rendition and comment accordingly, I'm quite grateful. And, concerning the dotted rhythm on the A minor section, I'll certainly try to follow the advice of your teacher recommends. If I succeed to improve it remarkably (and noticeably! :)), I may then produce and post an even better Version 4 :D.

Best regards,
Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
Posts: 628
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:19 am

I've thought about it again with a guitar in hand and actually I think I had it the wrong way around. You want the sympathetic motion to go from the short 32nd note to the next 8th note if that makes any sense! That's the one where you have the least time to prepare for the next note.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:18 am

powderedtoastman wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:19 am
I've thought about it again with a guitar in hand and actually I think I had it the wrong way around. You want the sympathetic motion to go from the short 32nd note to the next 8th note if that makes any sense! That's the one where you have the least time to prepare for the next note.
I did the same, after reading your post I went back to the guitar and checked again the fingering in the score (I have the Chanterelle edition of Sor's Complete Studies), et voilá, they were indicating that the 32nd note should be plucked with the m finger, followed by the next 8th note with the i, exactly the sympathetic motion you refer to in your post above (see, please, the picture below).

Dotted fast measures in #7.png

The two sets of measures under discussion are signalled in red and blue. So, starting with the 8th note A with the m finger, the sequence proceeds with the a finger (which I was not using :(), followed by the fast transition m to i, returning again to the m, and so forth... - the sympathetic motion a m i you mentioned and which is also normally used in the tremolo movement. And you know what? It works! After some time correcting my previous fingering I was doing this new fingering sequence fast enough and with the two notes clearly separated. I may, then, post a new record of the #7 one of these days... :D
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:37 am

Interesting, I didn't think to use the a finger in that spot. I have just been alternating m and i. I may consider trying it just to see if it works well for me.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:33 am

Continuing with my review of past records of Sor's Opus 60 pieces, I came to my rendition of the #8, posted on March 13th, 2017. Well, this is a very simple piece and the only "challenging" part are the last two 8th beats in m.12. The rendition I posted then was quite reasonable and I might leave it like that, but the fact is that, nowadays, I play this piece a bit faster and in a more assertive way, therefore, I'm now posting my V2 of Sor's Opus 60 #8 for you all to listen and comment.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, this time, my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 14Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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