Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:41 pm

mainterm wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:47 pm
...

Well - I certainly didn't mean to imply a judgement regarding your choice of tempo, rather to learn your thoughts on it. And to this end I appreciate your thorough response.

As for my opinion - were I to perform this piece before an audience, my musical instincts take me toward a slower tempo than you are using. I simply prefer to "sing" this piece more slowly - and as the melody is the same in the variation, I would keep the tempo the same for both as you reason above.

AND

Objective rules for Sor's tempos: this information - if it exists - is unknown to me. There's some scholarship on it, there's speculation, there's a fair bit of opinion, but objective criteria? No.

I suspect that if one wanted to embark on a music theory / notation research and analysis project you could do quite a lot with just the scores we have of Sor's music - I'm not aware of any such effort - at least not to the extent that a PhD dissertation in theory or analysis would require. Perhaps its out there, maybe someone here knows of such an effort...?

I've spent a fair bit of time reading about tempo in 19th century western art music and it's a rabbit hole. A really interesting rabbit hole, but not one that yields generic rules such as: Andante = <insert absolute/objective thing here>.
Many thanks, mainterm, for looking into my thoughts on tempo regarding my rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #8. In conclusion, you, Jess Phillips and also Yisrael Van Handel (at least initially :D) all seem to prefer the slower tempo. Well, it makes sense, indeed, to play both the #8 and the #9 so I'll edit the Table of Posted Records (TPR) in my Google drive so that my entry for the #8 starts pointing to the post where the slower tempo rendition of the #8 is.

As for articles on Fernando Sor, I only read one far, dealing with his apparent use of the musical rest as a polysemous sign, written by Ricardo Iván Barceló Abeijón, an Iberian-Uruguayan guitarist, teacher, and composer who attended the Real Conservatorio Superior de Música, Madrid, and earned his PhD in music at Aveiro University in Portugal. Interesting...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:00 pm

As I said before, the Novice graded pieces are more challenging and the #12 in particular, with its pedal notes and specially its counterpoint measures is rather difficult to play at a reasonable speed and within tempo (I wonder why didn't Mr. Machael Macmeeken graded it as Intermediate... o). Looking back, then, to my previous rendition of the #12, the V2, posted in September 6th, 2017, well, I didn't like it. There are too many rhythmic changes, unwritten rests between some of its phrases and the same can be said between a section and its repetition. So, I started rehearsing it and I think I have now a more reasonable rendition, the V3, for you all to listen. The tempo is 1/8 = 170 bpm (I've seen it played faster, but this is as much as I can do). Comments are welcome.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #12 (V3).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 28Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jess Phillips
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jess Phillips » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:13 am

Here's a rough rendition of #2. It's been taking me too long to record so I just had to settle lol. Definitely a lot of room for improvement. I tried recording it on my new lute-guitar and had a lot of trouble keeping it from sliding around in my lap. It was fun nonetheless. :)
Cordoba C7
Godin ACS-SA
Walter Merzdorf German Lute

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:16 pm

Jess Phillips wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:13 am
Here's a rough rendition of Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #2.mp3. It's been taking me too long to record so I just had to settle lol. Definitely a lot of room for improvement. I tried recording it on my new lute-guitar and had a lot of trouble keeping it from sliding around in my lap. It was fun nonetheless. :)
Not rough at all, it sounds nice, Jess, well done (I edited the name of the piece in your post above, I hope you don't mind :D). The tone is good, the tempo is adequate and the recording is OK (a lute-guitar? You mean a lute, no? Or is it a Panormo style guitar?). One remark, though. It seems to me that you are playing the two 1/8 notes in m.2, m.4, m.6 and so on as if they were ascending slurs. Am I wrong? Please check.

Well this #2 is done, go no to the #3, which is a little more demanding. And don't forget to keep on playing the #1 and the #2 as part of your daily practice, your playing will improve day by day, you will see...

With this rendition of yours, the Table of Posted Records (TPR) becomes:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 29Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jess Phillips
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jess Phillips » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:23 pm

Thank you, Jorge. You are correct about the slurs. The version of Opus 60 that I have contains a lot of slurs. I wasn't sure if that was intentional and apart of what the study was supposed to be teaching you or not.

As for the guitar, I don't know what else to call it haha. According to my research, they were made in Germany for a while and simply translate to "lute guitar."
Cordoba C7
Godin ACS-SA
Walter Merzdorf German Lute

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Jess Phillips
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jess Phillips » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:04 pm

Actually, it seems "German lute" might be less confusing.
Cordoba C7
Godin ACS-SA
Walter Merzdorf German Lute

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:14 pm

Jess Phillips wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:23 pm
Thank you, Jorge. You are correct about the slurs. The version of Opus 60 that I have contains a lot of slurs. I wasn't sure if that was intentional and apart of what the study was supposed to be teaching you or not.

As for the guitar, I don't know what else to call it haha. According to my research, they were made in Germany for a while and simply translate to "lute guitar."
I happen to have the Chanterelle Edition of Fernando Sor - "The Complete Studies for Guitar" (no slurs in there). There is also a Tecla Edition that seems to be also very good. But you can find Sor's Opus 60 in the archives of this Forum. Just follow the Sor link below the Board Index line in any of its pages (top left) and you will come to a facsimile of a very early edition in pdf. The #2 is in page 3. The first slurs only come up on the #5 study.


Yes, my ignorance, forgive me. There is indeed a lute guitar or German lute. It does have an interesting sound. The tuning is the same as of a modern guitar? Does it requires gut strings? And your instrument was built recently, I imagine? It is quite round and elongated, no wonder you have some difficulty to handle it :lol:. But is must have a strap to put around your neck to hold it firm, I guess... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:17 pm

Dear Friends:

December is gone and it is now time to publish the corresponding statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this past month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Dec_2018.png

Most of the posts were mine and related to the revision I've been doing of my early records of the Opus 60 pieces. Jess Phillips presented his first rendition of the #2 and Yisrael also presented a new version of the #15. As usual, those in the graph with zero posts posted sometime in the past but not in this past November. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so that we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows represents the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Dec_2018.png

As for new records posted in December, there there was the #2 by Jess Phillips, played in a lute guitar, also known as a German lute :). Repeated records of the same piece are not accounted for (my own re-records, for instance), only the date of the newest rendition replaces the previous date in the Table of Posted Records (TPR) below.

Monthly Posted Records, Dec17-Dec18.png

The following graph presents the Table of Posted Records (TPR) as of December 31st:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 31Dec18.png

Please notice the grading line showing the Elementary, Novice and Intermediate pieces in the Opus 60. Please notice also that this is just a picture file. However, by pointing at any individual cell in the corresponding TPR Excel file stored in my Google Drive, the reader is directed to the corresponding post in this thread where he will have available not only the audio file but all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

Finally, the next graphic depicts the total number of monthly posts and views in this Topic since Dec 2017.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts &amp; Views_Dec17-Dec18.png

As the graphic shows, and already stated, the number of post and views in this Topic was slightly higher in December than it was in November. It shows that there is still a lot of interest in this Project by a considerable number of Forum Members. Wishing you all a Happy 2019, I thank you for your support to this Project

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:52 am

Proceeding with my revision of past records of Sor's Opus 60, I jumped the #14, for the time being, and peered into the #15 which I recorded and posted in July 27th, 2017. It sounds good but there are some misshapes as far as rhythm is concerned. So I did another record which can be found below. I've increased the beating from 1/8 = 260 bpm in my first version to 300 bpm in this one. Comments are welcome.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #15 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #15 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 03Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:06 pm

Looking now at my V5 rendition of Sor's Opus 60, #14, which I recorded and posted in November 6th, 2017, well, it is not bad, but I guessed that, after one year of playing it almost on a daily basis, I ought I could do better (but you will be the judge of that, of course :D). So there you have, another record, V6, which can be found below. In this V6 I've kept the tempo I used in V5: 1/4 = 77 bpm. Comments are welcome.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone X, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone via a Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter. The guitar used was my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V6).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V6).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 03Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Christopher Langley
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Christopher Langley » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:17 am



:)
Studying Jazz and Blues now.. So it goes friends. I might make a return to Classical at some point.

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Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 am

Christopher Langley wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:17 am


:)
Well done! Played with skill. Personally, I like the last 3 notes to take it to the finish more slowly, but that's just artistic preference.
And just 3 notes. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Lawler on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Christopher Langley
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Christopher Langley » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:17 am

Lawler wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 am
Christopher Langley wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:17 am


:)
Well done! Played with skill. Personally, I like the last 3 notes to take it to the finish more slowly, but that's just artistic preference.
Makes sense! I'll give it a try! Thanks for your kind words, I've been working hard on this piece.
Studying Jazz and Blues now.. So it goes friends. I might make a return to Classical at some point.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Christopher Langley wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:17 am
Lawler wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:05 am
...
Well done! Played with skill. Personally, I like the last 3 notes to take it to the finish more slowly, but that's just artistic preference.
Makes sense! I'll give it a try! Thanks for your kind words, I've been working hard on this piece.

Well done, Christopher, nice tempo, clear notes, good tone. But I agree with Lawler, you end your rendition in a somewhat abrupt way. The final notes might have stayed longer in the air and only then you cut off the recording device. You can do that easily using MovieMaker, a free video editor from Microsoft. Beyond fading out the image in the end, it allows you, also, to prepare a front page with the name of the piece, your own name, recording date, etc... This is a little piece from Francisco Tárrega, Los Grupetos, where the recording was done directly with my iPhone - video and audio - and the resulting .mov file edited with MovieMaker to produce an .mp4 video/audio image that, once stored in Dropbox or similar on-line file system, can then be posted in this Forum or in You Tube. You might give it a try, it is almost trivial to use.

Anyway, the #1 is clearly learned, time now to move into the #2, slightly more challenging :D ...

With this rendition of yours, Christopher, the Table of Posted Records becomes, then:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 12Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Christopher Langley
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 997
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:59 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Christopher Langley » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:52 pm

-
Thanks for adding me Jorge!
Studying Jazz and Blues now.. So it goes friends. I might make a return to Classical at some point.

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