Beethoven: not feeling it!

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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MartinCogg
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by MartinCogg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:57 pm

JohnB wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:48 pm
I doubt whether anyone followed up the iPlayer link but I do really like the story so I have transcribed what Steven Isserlis said:
I followed it up JohnB... and even went to the bother of creating a BBC account in order to listen, which is something we
didn't used to have to do, and which up to now I've been refusing to do - so now I'm in :?

I found it interesting to hear Isserlis say he didn't feel much of a connection with English (British?) music - I haven't
had time to listen to the whole thing yet.

Is this all proceeding a bit like a Beethoven piece perhaps? - a few stormy moments -

I like my Beethoven particularly for its jolly good sense of humour.

AndreiKrylov

Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:02 pm

ddray wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:33 pm
JohnB wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:24 pm
Oh, for heaven's sake !
It's about the 20th time it's happened. One time for me as well as a result of one of these stupid "You say yes, I say no" 50-comebacks dust-ups. And I'm not going to be called "dishonest" (indirectly) when I'M not the one who's been putting words into other people's mouths. If Lenin and the Communists used Beethoven in propaganda, that's not Beethoven's fault, just as it's not the fault of Bruckner or Bach that their music was used by the Nazis. "Guilt by association". If that was the problem with Beethoven, then it could've been stated from the outset without being, for example, willfully ignorant and comparing a massive, monumental Beethoven sonata movement to just more boring 19th century salon music. Whatever it is, good or bad, to anyone who has a modicum of knowledge and sense, it ain't that.

To the OP: your tastes may change and evolve and (dare I say it?) grow over time. Unless we're so egocentric that we think we have all the answers, we all grow and change over time. It's no big deal in my view if Beethoven doesn't "speak" to you right now. And now I'm through with this topic and with the forum for a while.
Whatever. I could not be in place where it is so easy to someone to twist and misrepresent what I say, or simply attribute something which I never said, or attribute to me ideas, motives and attitudes which are not exist.
And then some others may carry on this or simply will look with indifference.
No thanks.
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by JohnB » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:09 pm

Deleted.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

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Michael.N.
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm

:wink: Sounds like the opening of the fifth to me.
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by JohnB » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:32 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:24 pm
:wink: Sounds like the opening of the fifth to me.
Or even a touch of Sturm und Drang.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

crazyrach97
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by crazyrach97 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:53 pm

My god... is this for real?!

chiral3
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by chiral3 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:24 pm

Not really, it's the internet - rather an internet forum - and it's a subjective and experiential topic.

One other thought, per your OP: there's some music that I listen to that I don't really like or feel, but I can appreciate it. Maybe Beethoven fits into this category for you.

If you want to see something interesting that some people both like and appreciate (not so much me), google the video for Edgerton's Tempo Mental Rap.
“Every man should be capable of all ideas, and I believe that in the future he will be.” ― Jorge Luis Borges

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MartinCogg
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by MartinCogg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 pm

crazyrach - If you mean is there jolly good humour to be found in Beethoven's music :?: - YES

rather than try point to it myself I just did a search 'humor in beethoven' and this came up for starters -

www.gyrix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2417

mainterm
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by mainterm » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:49 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion. I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.
I didn't see much in him for a long time...

Then I started undergraduate work in music and was immediately drawn into compositional theory and began studying formal composition. As it happened the resident professor of composition at my school was a Beethoven specialist. I studied Beethoven and many other composers too.

As those undergrad years passed, my personal conviction that Beethoven was a masterful composer increased. Thankfully I learned a lot of other interesting stuff not related to Beethoven - (and most of that outside of school of course). I still assert that Beethoven was a master at his craft and yet I recognize no requirement to like his music, but mastery - even if only found in a single composition - is bound to cause some fuss and I think this is fine.

So short version: Beethoven was a master, but you don't need Beethoven to find mastery...

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Lawler
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Lawler » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:58 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:53 pm
My god... is this for real?!
Why do emotionally charged topics always end up as brawls? OK... not always. It just feels like always.

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Lawler
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Lawler » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:06 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:57 pm
...
I like my Beethoven particularly for its jolly good sense of humour.
I hear you, Martin. Sometimes I think that humor is the only thing that can save us from our ("our" as in all of us, ever) self destructive tendencies.

And if it doesn't, at least it helps one to get through the day with a smile.

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Rick Beauregard
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Rick Beauregard » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:40 pm

I for one can empathize that Andrei grew up in a system that used music as politics and takes umbrage when he sees trends abridging freedoms we westerners may not see. I can also appreciate that when conversing in a second language sometimes mis understandings occur. Hell, even when conversing in your native tongue on the internet things get bollixed up. Let’s cut each other some slack.

Anyway, maybe it was mentioned before, I haven’t labored through the entire thread. But in his time LvB was a vanguard, not loved by everyone, but an experimenter. Then he was appreciated when everyone caught up. Now looking back he seem to some archaic. But you have to appreciate his place in the evolution of music. Funny, I wouldn’t think of taking a Rap Appreciation course in college. But we need the college course to really understand Beethoven.
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Lawler
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Lawler » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:40 pm
Let’s cut each other some slack.
That's always a good thing. More of that, please! :mrgreen:

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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by chiral3 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:57 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:04 pm

Well while these things which you mentioned and described are useful and interesting they all mostly describe music mainly from one angle... relationships of sounds in certain western tonal system, thus avoiding or ignoring all other ways music exists or may exist... like other possible systems with quarter tones or any other intervals roles of the timbres and colors different emotional and psychological aspects diversity of techniques.cultures.styles etc.
I don't disagree with you at all as it relates to western music. I've been playing Indian music lately with some people (...Indians). Rhythmically Indian classical music is as complex, or more, than western music. I've been playing with some flute players too. Their playing is rather modal. Their rules are easily as complex and established as western music, but they are conveyed differently. It's mainly spoken and, later, felt and understood. A piece will start with a person saying something like "Ta Ti Ki Ta Din Ta Ki Ta Din" much like how a jazz player will call a chart. While playing he'll vary the downbeat between any subdivision of 9 that you can think of and the flutes keep up perfectly. They are totally locked in. It reminds me of great jazz players that only need some charts to start. I love the sound of nylon string with flutes.
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Tom Poore
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Tom Poore » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 am

crazyrach97 wrote:I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion.
If you think about it, it’s not surprising. Many musicians will tell you that, more than any other composer, it was Beethoven that steered them into a life of music. Each of these musicians can tell the story of a Beethoven piece that rocked them to their core. (I know—I’m one of them.) So when someone steps forward and says “what’s all the fuss about Beethoven,” more than a few will respond with something less than equanimity. Please don’t take it personally. Once we breathe into a bag and stop hyperventilating, most of us can settle into a rational discussion.
crazyrach97 wrote:I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.
You’re correct that both statements are false. But if we amend your first statement thus—“if I don’t like Beethoven, then I clearly don’t know how to listen to Beethoven”—that may well be true.

What to do about it is entirely up to you.

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
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