Beethoven: not feeling it!

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by zupfgeiger » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:03 pm
PaulHardy wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm
ddray wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:05 pm

I think in fact that's pretty much what you do. Point out to me where ANYone in this thread said they love Beethoven's music unconditionally, that every note he wrote was perfect, blahblahblah. I know I never have. You caricature people's opinions just to pick an argument and to make yourself look like some musical martyr. If I say "anti-Beethoven" I think it might be pretty well understood that I mean "anti those who have here tried to demonstrate that Beethoven was indeed a great composer". Hey here's an idea. Give us some examples of passages in Beethoven you like, or some passages that you find are boring and dull. Just because he's revered by "the establishment" and conservatories and the tuxedo set doesn't make him bad. And that's all I have to say. I'm not going into any more of these 50 comment deeply-quote-nested disputes with you again. Sincere best wishes to you though.
Well said . This has got sadly polarised despite the best efforts of you and others to be moderate

Anyway, I apologize for taking part in this discussion.
And I am asking moderators - please delete my profile and all my posts and themes which I started.
Thank you very much.
Good luck everybody!
Best wishes and happy guitar playing!
That sounds familiar.
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Jess Phillips
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Jess Phillips » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:46 pm

I'd just like to mention what a privilege it is to be able listen to someone like Wilhelm Kempff play Beethoven. When I listen to him and Brendel play, it's so incredibly masterful and moving. If I ever wanted to hear it played like that I would have to spend a lifetime perfecting it as such. Instead thanks to Wilhelm I get to listen to someone who already put in a lifetime of work, and benefit from it. It's truly an honor listening to them.

Believe it or not I didn't know about those two before this thread. I'm still pretty new to the classical community. For that exposure alone, I'm very thankful for everyone's replies.
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Jess Phillips
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Jess Phillips » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:48 pm

JohnB wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:12 pm
A Beethoven story: a few weeks ago I caught a fascinating programme on the radio. In it the cellist Steven Isserlis tells the story of his grandfather seeking lodgings in Vienna in the interwar years and meeting a very elderly ....... well better to listen to Steven Isserlis tell the story himself (and yes, it does link to Beethoven, Beethoven the person).

BBC iPlayer: move the slider to 12:45
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b2klj4

If people can't listen to the iPlayer I will tell the story myself, but it is better coming from Steven Isserlis.

(The whole programme is worth listening to anyway. At one stage Isserlis says "I'm just off to the States now where I am going to play a Bach Suite which scares me for some reason more than anything else, and I'm playing a Bach Suite in New York and I've been terrified about that for two years.)
This was a great interview, and a quite the funny Beethoven story too haha. I loved listening to Steven talk about his performance anxiety. It's quite eye opening.
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by JohnB » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Jess Phillips wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:46 pm
I'd just like to mention what a privilege it is to be able listen to someone like Wilhelm Kempff play Beethoven. When I listen to him and Brendel play, it's so incredibly masterful and moving. If I ever wanted to hear it played like that I would have to spend a lifetime perfecting it as such. Instead thanks to Wilhelm I get to listen to someone who already put in a lifetime of work, and benefit from it. It's truly an honor listening to them.

Believe it or not I didn't know about those two before this thread. I'm still pretty new to the classical community. For that exposure alone, I'm very thankful for everyone's replies.
Jess, thank you for posting that, it's gratifying that someone else finds a certain magic in their playing.

Brendel (who I saw live a few times) was an admirer of Kempff and wrote in his book "The Veil of Order" that Kempff "played on impulse... it depended on whether the right breeze, as with an aeolian harp, was blowing. You then would take something home that you never heard elsewhere."

There is a video on YouTube of Kempff playing Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. It must have been filmed not too many years before he retired from performance, probably influenced by the onset of Parkinson's Disease.

Both are great favorites of mine though, of course, there are many, many wonderful pianists
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chien buggle
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by chien buggle » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion. I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.

Hi crazyrach97,
Have you checked out any of the other 'great composers' and if so what are your thoughts?

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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by crazyrach97 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:00 am

chien buggle wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion. I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.

Hi crazyrach97,
Have you checked out any of the other 'great composers' and if so what are your thoughts?
If I had to pick one it would be Mozart... the guy just had great melodies oozing out of him. I like Haydn a lot.

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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Wuuthrad » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:06 am

Funny, Beethoven has 5 or 6 melodies that are permanently etched in my brain, and as many that are immediately recognizable.

:casque:

They're so common and ubiquitous that I can't understand how anyone could describe Beethoven as not being melodic.

:pace:
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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:17 am

Well, the best thing would be to start listening to some of his more famous and "easy-listening" compositions then move to more complicated ones. This way, one would start to understand him more. Another thing that might help is to read about the historical facts then and what Beethoven himself was going through at that time. He is the symbol of resistance in music and had such a strong character...
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zupfgeiger
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by zupfgeiger » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:19 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:00 am
chien buggle wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion. I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.

Hi crazyrach97,
Have you checked out any of the other 'great composers' and if so what are your thoughts?
If I had to pick one it would be Mozart... the guy just had great melodies oozing out of him. I like Haydn a lot.
A memorable melody doesn't make a great composer. Mozart is for sure among the greatest, but Beethoven's compositions are more complex. Where Mozart is just nice to listen to, Beethoven brakes up with the fundamental rules of the classical musical style. Listen to the late string quartets and you will find some passages which might be composed by Arnold Shönberg. These quartets went far beyond the comprehension of musicians and audiences of the time. The "Große Fuge" in particular but others as well are a glance into the musical future. And - perhaps with the exception of Don Giovanni and the Requiem - Mozart's music was not as much woven with the dramatic elements of life. This is why - at least for me - J.S.Bach and Beethoven are the greatest composer of all time - with all due respect for Mozart.
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DevonBadger
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by DevonBadger » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:05 pm

There is art that I can just about imagine being able to produce myself, had I the talent, dedication, excellent support and teaching from an early age, etc.

And then there is the very greatest of art where I just cannot conceive of how it was created by a human being; which is supernatural and way beyond the realm of my imagination.

For me, so much of Beethoven's music is in the latter category. It touches my soul and resonates deep inside me. I just can't begin to comprehend how on earth he did it. And that's even without considering his deafness; at which point my mind becomes well and truly blown.

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Jim Davidson
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Jim Davidson » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:17 pm

I like Beethoven.
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MartinCogg
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by MartinCogg » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:54 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:19 pm
- at least for me - J.S.Bach and Beethoven are the greatest composer of all time - with all due respect for Mozart.


Beethoven being in my thoughts and cd player on account of this topic has unfortunately been affecting the current painting -
today's session mostly saw me staring at it wondering 'what now?'... (I only got around to altering his starboard arm a little bit
since taking this photo)
boulder hat 'progress' report.JPG

NOW, I'm minded there's room for one more in me boat :? (and I look forward to listening to some Bach tomorrow).
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Last edited by MartinCogg on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

astro64
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by astro64 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:30 pm

Ah, what would Mozart have written had he lived another 30 years....

chien buggle
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by chien buggle » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:44 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:00 am
chien buggle wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:01 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:49 pm
I'm really kind of flattened by how acrimonious this got. The whole thrust of my initial post was: I'm listening to Beethoven and not quite seeing what all the fuss is about. What do you guys see in him? Figured it would engender some friendly discussion. I'm getting everything from people implying that if I don't like Beethoven I clearly don't know how to listen to music to people saying that Beethoven is overrated and only popular because of establishment values. I doubt either of those statements is true.

Hi crazyrach97,
Have you checked out any of the other 'great composers' and if so what are your thoughts?
If I had to pick one it would be Mozart... the guy just had great melodies oozing out of him. I like Haydn a lot.
You might like beethovens pathetique sonata 2nd movement. It's very lyrical and has something in common guiliani's better music. Sounds pretty good on guitar too.

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Tom Poore
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Re: Beethoven: not feeling it!

Post by Tom Poore » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:38 am

crazyrach97 wrote:If I had to pick one it would be Mozart... the guy just had great melodies oozing out of him. I like Haydn a lot.
When you have the time, look into Schubert. Beautiful melodies were part of his DNA:



...and this isn’t even his most famous piece.

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA

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