Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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nico
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by nico » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:30 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:04 pm
Thank you powderedtoastman, thank you nico, for listening to my latest rendition of the #6 and for your valuable advice. Both said that I was not maintaining the rhythm and that I should go back to the metronome to steady it up. And so I did and you - as well as other Forum Members - can find, below, for listening and commenting, my V3 of the #6, this time played with a metronome stuck in my left ear (an Apple iPod connected to my iPhone) :lol:. The tempo is 1/4 = 55 bpm. The guitar used was, again, my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972) fitted with Knobloch Actives CX 500 Carbon Double Silver, High Tension strings.


Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #6 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #6 (V3).mp3
Very well done Jorge, it sounds beautiful! Strong and stable rhythm (55) and a very warm tone, specially in the basses :D
Indeed can still hear some of your interpretation now through that metronome in your ear, hope the metronome will internalize one day completely into your body, so that you could master it the way you want, on places where to play a ritenuto/ ralantando. I would like to make that suggestion again to clap your hands, stamp your feet, bounce your head on the rhythm of the music you're listening to. Just to internalize the rhythm. I realized that, unfortunately it's not possible to do that while playing the guitar, because every part of the body seems to be connected directly to the instrument; only the head could be moved, but then sight-reading becomes too difficult :lol:
And yes, it's a good idea to become more aware again of the legato versus non legato playing, specially in the chromatic diphthongs (?tweeklanken) in ms. 13,14 and 18,19 you could hear the non legato playing if you listen carefully.
By the way, I ordered the strings you're using all the time, next to some others that I'm going to try. Hopefully my basses will become more evident, at least when I'm able to hold my hand a bit higher before the whole of the guitar :roll: and use a firm thumb attack.
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nico
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by nico » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:42 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:03 am
Quick update.
I have tenosynovitis stenosans (trigger finger). It is worse while sleeping than when awake, but I have to be careful when playing. There is no question in my mind that it caused by repeated playing of measures 5 and 21 in Opus 6. The hyperflexion required to play the F# on the 3rd beat of measure 5 followed by the immediate shift to playing E on the 4th string with the same finger, G on the first string with the adjacent finger, and E on the second string with the 4th finger was more flexion and extension in rapid succession than my tendons could handle.
Very sorry to hear that you are having these problems Yisrael, hope it will heal quickly! Better be careful, I remember that the famous Milos Karadaglic had to stop for at least a year :cry: . But his injury, also a trigger finger, could have been much worse. Our fingers are a precious thing!!! Whishing you all the best!
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powderedtoastman
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by powderedtoastman » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:42 pm

Yisrael, I'm sorry to hear about that, I hope for the best case scenario for you! And I hope you'll still enjoy contributing to this thread even if you can't make playing progress at the same rate. You have a lot of good comments as you follow what the other players are doing so it will be great if you keep at it!

gitaarvis
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by gitaarvis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:00 pm

Jorge thank you very much for this link Bijes collection it seems very useful

fiver78
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by fiver78 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:55 pm

Chanterelle Edition of Sor's Complete Studies

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:55 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:29 pm
… measures 5 and 21 :(. Have you tried to apply a barré of four strings to these measures? The advantage is that by just sliding two frets down the already established relative position of fingers 2 and 4 in b.4, you go straight to b.1 of the following measures (6 and 22). And in m.22, as powderedtoastman indicated, you don't need the barré of five strings indicated in the score (at least in my Chanterelle edition), you use the free 1 to do the C-natural of b.2.
Jorge,
Many thanks for the suggestion to use a cejilla in measures 5 and 21. My score (Tecla) and the score the Sor published himself do not say anything one way or the other about a cejilla (namely, the fingering is exactly the same with or without the cejilla) but using the cejilla is certainly easier and eliminates the strain on the injured left-hand 1 finger. Thank you for the good advice.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 pm

Jorge, good job on #6. Only thing I'd like to point out are the extraneous notes 'sprouting' here and there when your shift from one LH shape to the next. It seems you're lifting your LH finger too early, and too vigorously, such that it sometimes inadvertently slurs the open string before reaching its target. Having sticky LH fingers may exacerbate the effect. Or are those extraneous notes (for example the slurred open B at the beginning) intended as ornaments?

Yisrael - Playing a little at a time is always a good idea, even with intact hands. I rarely practice longer than 15 minutes en bloc; after which I'd stand up, do something else, then return for another 15 minutes block. Take care.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:03 am

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 pm
Yisrael - Playing a little at a time is always a good idea, even with intact hands. I rarely practice longer than 15 minutes en bloc; after which I'd stand up, do something else, then return for another 15 minutes block. Take care.
Alexander, thanks for your concern. I cannot even imagine practicing in 15-minute blocks. However, what I can imagine is that much of my practice time is spent studying fingering, harmonic development, and reading technique books. Oh, and lately watching videos. I find that electric guitarists sometimes have really good technical advice. One of the best pieces of advice came from a rock guitarist who quoted David Russell. He showed how to make sure that your palm is correctly placed in relationship to the edge of the fingerboard. There should be no change of position whether you are fretting a note or barring with your first finger. This is very helpful, because I believe that my problem came from playing with the palm too close to the edge of the finger board. That improves access to the bass strings, but causes the first finger to be hyperflexed when playing on the first string. I tend to believe that is what started my problems. I am now playing further away from the finger board (exact same distance as for a cejilla) and it feels much better.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:08 am

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:46 pm
Jorge, good job on #6. Only thing I'd like to point out are the extraneous notes 'sprouting' here and there when your shift from one LH shape to the next. It seems you're lifting your LH finger too early, and too vigorously, such that it sometimes inadvertently slurs the open string before reaching its target. Having sticky LH fingers may exacerbate the effect. Or are those extraneous notes (for example the slurred open B at the beginning) intended as ornaments?
...
Many thanks, Alexander, for listening to my rendition of the #6 and for your, as usual, encouragement and valuable comments as well. Initially, I did not understand to which "sprouting" notes you were referring to. But then, returning, not to the record, but to the guitar and playing as usual those first measures... ha! there it was, an unintended slur on open B, not too strong, but clearly audible, indeed. And, no, it was not an ornament :D, it was just bad playing :oops: and I'm grateful you noticed and called my attention to it. I really have to look to places in the score where, as you say, I'm lifting my LH fingers too early and quite abruptly. I suppose, this is also the root cause of some gentle remarks from fellow Forum Members in this thread concerning my occasional non-legato way of playing. The problem is that I've not been groomed in my early classical guitar days to pay attention to these things and I'm not even aware I'm doing it wrongly. But, rest assured, from now on I'll be more attentive. Thanks again :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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nico
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by nico » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm

Here is my rendition of Sor # 4 for you all to listen to.
Indeed not as easy as it looks, specially the separation of the upper melody line and the bass melody line. I did not yet use the appoyando for the upper melody, because in fact I never really learned to play appoyando. At the time that I started with the guitar, appoyando was seen by my teacher as not appropriate for classical guitar. Now I understand from my present teacher Bart, whom I visit once in a while, that there is nowadays again a lot of discussion about it. Anyhow it is good to learn the technique as to be able to use it if you want. So I only start learning it now ...... :(
Please, your comments are always welcome.
Sor Opus 35 no 4
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:42 pm

I'm now posting my second version of Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment if you so wish. In my first version, the values of the bass line notes were not as written in the score, they were longer than they should :oops:. This aspect is corrected in this version.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. This time, the guitar used was my Ryoji Matsuoka No. 40 (1979), D'Addario EJ46FF Pro-Arte Carbon, Dynacore Basses, High Tension strings (2 months, 25 days old and 38 hours of effective playing time :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below.

The score says Andante (1/4 = 73 - 77 bpm) but I end up playing it faster, at 1/4 = 95 bpm (even so, slower than in my first rendition where I achieved 110 bpm, which was, perhaps, too fast). And, ...ah!, in order to avoid drifting too much from the pre-selected tempo, this time I had a metronome stuck in my left ear... :lol:. Suggestions for improvements are most welcome.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V2).mp3

So, now, the Table of Posted Records - which includes nico's rendition of the #4 also posted today - becomes as follows:

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 20Jun19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members. Mind you, the link to posts provided in this Excel file does not work in the iPhone and in the iPad (being lodged in the Google Drive, Google interferes with the Microsoft Excel file trying to convert it to an equivalent Google spreadsheet... too bad, unfortunately :cry:).

I can now dedicate myself, fully, to the #7... :D
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:56 pm

nico wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm
Here is my rendition of Sor # 4 for you all to listen to.
Indeed not as easy as it looks, specially the separation of the upper melody line and the bass melody line. I did not yet use the appoyando for the upper melody, because in fact I never really learned to play appoyando. At the time that I started with the guitar, appoyando was seen by my teacher as not appropriate for classical guitar. Now I understand from my present teacher Bart, whom I visit once in a while, that there is nowadays again a lot of discussion about it. Anyhow it is good to learn the technique as to be able to use it if you want. So I only start learning it now ...... :(
Please, your comments are always welcome.
Sor Opus 35 no 4
Nicely played, nico, very beautiful, congratulations :D. The tempo you chose is fine and I like the occasional ritardando when changing phrases. Don't see the need for playing appoyando, on the contrary... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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nico
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by nico » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:55 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:42 pm
I'm now posting my second version of Sor's Opus 35 #9 for you all to listen to and comment if you so wish. In my first version, the values of the bass line notes were not as written in the score, they were longer than they should :oops:. This aspect is corrected in this version.


Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #9 (V2).mp3
Very well done Jorge, thank you, it's nice to listen to! :merci:
Did you play the whole piece without looking at the scores? It's a miracle, very good training for the brain :D
I'm not yet familiar with the #9, so there's not much I can say about it except that you're playing it beautiful in a nice stable rhythm and calm tempo!
Can't wait to start with it ......
Hermanos Camps CL-20-S

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MikeJay
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by MikeJay » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:19 am

nico wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm
Here is my rendition of Sor # 4 for you all to listen to.
Indeed not as easy as it looks, specially the separation of the upper melody line and the bass melody line. I did not yet use the appoyando for the upper melody, because in fact I never really learned to play appoyando. At the time that I started with the guitar, appoyando was seen by my teacher as not appropriate for classical guitar. Now I understand from my present teacher Bart, whom I visit once in a while, that there is nowadays again a lot of discussion about it. Anyhow it is good to learn the technique as to be able to use it if you want. So I only start learning it now ...... :(
Please, your comments are always welcome.
Sor Opus 35 no 4
Well done Nico. I also like the relaxed tempo. I'm now convinced that I should slow down a bit on it! Thanks.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:15 am

nico wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:20 pm
Here is my rendition of Sor # 4 for you all to listen to.
Hi, Nico,
Separation of voices very clear. I understood your musical message. I think that arpeggiating the first beat chords where there is nothing else to accent the first beat is a good idea. Well done. I cannot find a reason for an occasional hesitation in the melody line. It seems to occur in places that present no special difficulties. Is it possible that in scale passages, you need to work out the right-hand fingering in more detail?
As far as the apoyando stroke, it was not in use in Sor's time. It came into fashion in the time of Tárrega, And remained in fashion until perhaps 50 years ago. In any case, you do not need to feel that apoyando is required in Sor's music. I used it for #4 because I was not satisfied with my voice separation. You can achieve a similar voice separation with tirando strokes.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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