Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:10 pm

powderedtoastman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:27 am
...
And while I'm here... here's a sneak preview of number 5:
...
This is at a very reduced tempo and with the metronome, no repeats. Also I stopped and re-took in one place where I flubbed... I think the spirit of "learning" the opus means we can and should share snippets as we go along as part of the discussion.
...
Absolutely, powderedtoastman, sharing small clips of a particular piece as you go along is perfectly valid and within the "learning" spirit of this Topic. It was also done, occasionally, during Sor's Opus 60 Project and it proved to be useful to everyone. However, I'll only reference the rendition in the Table of Posted Records if the piece is complete. So, go along, we will all be listening with the utmost interest to your play and accompanying comments :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by powderedtoastman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:10 pm
powderedtoastman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:27 am
...
And while I'm here... here's a sneak preview of number 5:
...
This is at a very reduced tempo and with the metronome, no repeats. Also I stopped and re-took in one place where I flubbed... I think the spirit of "learning" the opus means we can and should share snippets as we go along as part of the discussion.
...
Absolutely, powderedtoastman, sharing small clips of a particular piece as you go along is perfectly valid and within the "learning" spirit of this Topic. It was also done, occasionally, during Sor's Opus 60 Project and it proved to be useful to everyone. However, I'll only reference the rendition in the Table of Posted Records if the piece is complete. So, go along, we will all be listening with the utmost interest to your play and accompanying comments :D.
Thanks Jorge! My sentiments exactly.
I will try to post up examples of my elaborate training regiment for this one, with the hopes it will be helpful to somebody else as well....

I do think I know the Carulli Larghetto alla Siciliana that you mention... is it from his Op. 241, the latter half?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:22 pm

powderedtoastman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 pm
...
I do think I know the Carulli Larghetto alla Siciliana that you mention... is it from his Op. 241, the latter half?
Yes, it is the piece no. 42 in Ferdinando Carulli's Méthode Complète pour Parvenir à Pincer la Guitarre, Opus 241. I have a facsimile of the "Sixième Édition" (Sixth Edition) printed in Paris (can't find the year). I also have a Mel Bay Publication of its "65 Gradually Progressive Pieces and 6 Studies", compiled and edited by Jim Roberts, and, if I'm not mistaken, I recall having seen you playing a Carulli composition in your Local Community Centre (is this the correct name?) with this book open in a stand in front of you. A fantastic Opus, of which I used to play just a few pieces (long forgotten since I started these Projects on Fernando Sor :cry:)
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

powderedtoastman
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by powderedtoastman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:46 pm

Yes, I have the Jim Roberts edition of that Carulli, and I use it quite regularly! It's very good quality and I think they kept the editorial changes to a minimum.
I also found an e-book edition on Google Books similar to the David Grimes Complete Sor Studies, both of which I converted to regular old PDF using some clever tactics so I could import them into MobileSheetsPro on my tablet.

In addition to the Complete Sor Studies, I strive to play through the entirety of that opus, but the ones after #40 or so are starting to get quite challenging!

And here are my drills for the first section Sor Op. 35 no. 5. I hope somebody will find this useful, I think it's a very methodical approach to learning a passage of music like this one. And I think this approach will come in handy if I ever decide to try my hand at something grandiose that has extended runs of 3rds, 6ths or 10ths or whatever...


mainterm
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by mainterm » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:57 am

powderedtoastman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:46 pm
<snip>
And here are my drills for the first section Sor Op. 35 no. 5. I hope somebody will find this useful, I think it's a very methodical approach to learning a passage of music like this one. And I think this approach will come in handy if I ever decide to try my hand at something grandiose that has extended runs of 3rds, 6ths or 10ths or whatever...
That's very nice - it's always encouraging to see someone striving to improve and use/develop methods to do so. I do mean that.

Regarding the no.5:

For anyone feeling like Sor's op.35 no.5 is a bit of a stretch (especially at a fast tempo), you may like to look at Aguado's study no.1 from his new guitar method. It employs precisely the same plucking-hand technique and musical texture, though it is notated slightly differently and has, naturally different nuances. PTM's techniques for working a piece like this apply equally well.

Aguado's piece is a bit more forgiving in terms of position shifts and focuses more (in my view) on fretting-hand finger independence with the 3rd and 4th fingers. It's perhaps only slightly less challenging than the Sor, but certainly worth a look**.

Aguado kindly gave dynamic markings which are most instructive to anyone desiring a more skillful approach to dynamics generally, but also specifically to a piece like this.


**Aguado does say - which makes me chuckle - that studies (such as this one without a tempo marking) should be played as fast and clearly as possible, so maybe it is [infinitely] harder in the end than Sor's. :)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:44 am

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:43 pm
...
...I think you are already doing a good job with the piece, but would suggest to start letting loose on the strict metronomic pulse and start playing with the music a little; you may want to take some cues from Nick's beautiful rendition.
...
Hi Alexander, I hope you sorted out the difficulty in hearing my renditions in your PC without distortion. If not, a pair of reasonable earphones will be enough, I'm convinced.

So, I accepted your challenge above and and in my #1 (V2) below I increased significantly the tempo - from 1/4 = 125 bpm to, roughly, 1/4 = 160 bpm -, played without a metronome in my ear :lol:, accented some notes and subdued others, slowed momentarily in m.24 and also towards the end as well, and, in the last measure, I followed the indication of mainterm to let the last C bass to ring alone. When played faster, the musicality in the piece comes alive, no doubt, but then, I wonder why Sor stated that it should be played in Andante...:? But perhaps 160 bpm is way too fast, you will tell me.

The record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone X, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone via a Lightning to 3.5 mm Headphone Jack Adapter. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (1984), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #1 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 35 #1 (V2).mp3


The Table of Posted Records (TPR) becomes the following:

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 08Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by mainterm » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:37 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:44 am
<snip>
When played faster, the musicality in the piece comes alive, no doubt, but then, I wonder why Sor stated that it should be played in Andante...:? But perhaps 160 bpm is way too fast, you will tell me.
While Aguado was quite clear that his tempos from around this time could be objectively determined using Maelzel's metronome - I'm not aware that we have such an indication from Sor himself. (anyone?) And in any case the varied meanings of tempo indications from early 19th century Europe are not the standards printed on metronomes today. Tempo is also more complex than identifying the indicated beat by the time signature and referencing a tempo chart on the metronome. I think metrical matters play in, as does the character of the piece, and what kinds of note values are used overall and in specific passages.

So from my perspective, Jorge, it is perfectly alright to explore ways to bring "the musicality in the piece alive". This is more important a goal, well, than any other that comes to mind here. Of course with didactic pieces you play them without any technical errors.

Andante is a particularly challenging tempo to nail down in the 19th century. Even early music dictionaries such as Rousseau's, in 1826 ed., make an association between the tempo Andante and the Italian verb andare, which roughly means "to go" or "going". In the same music dictionary Rousseau equates Modéré (trans. It. Moderato) with Andante while also noting that Andantino is slower, not faster than Andante... Indeed he doesn't recognize "moderato" as an imported Italian tempo direction, he simply lists five principle ones: largo, adagio, andante, allegro, presto. I think this leaves a lot more ground for "andante" to cover than we think now, (especially if andantino was meant to be slower in some cases).

If you conceive this piece in cut time, feel the beat on the 1/2 note, then 1/4=160 = 1/2=80 which is a fairly moderate tempo, one that if you were walking this way wouldn't seem like you were frantically rushing, nor that you were strolling...but that you are definitely "going" somewhere.

Seems a fair interpretation of Andante to me. And there are other valid interpretations as well - as I mentioned, I'm playing around with slower tempos on this while still attempting to retain a sense of "going" somewhere...

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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Nick Cutroneo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:49 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:44 am
So, I accepted your challenge above and and in my #1 (V2) below I increased significantly the tempo - from 1/4 = 125 bpm to, roughly, 1/4 = 160 bpm -, played without a metronome in my ear :lol:, accented some notes and subdued others, slowed momentarily in m.24 and also towards the end as well, and, in the last measure, I followed the indication of mainterm to let the last C bass to ring alone. When played faster, the musicality in the piece comes alive, no doubt, but then, I wonder why Sor stated that it should be played in Andante...:? But perhaps 160 bpm is way too fast, you will tell me.
I just listened to your newest version - quite a noticeable difference, in a positive way. To answer your question of why Sor indicated "Andante" - Andante simply means walking tempo. How are you conceiving the pulse, are you walking to the quarter note or to the half note? The half note pulse provides the ability to establish and maintain a longer line. We get these large sweeping arpeggios that come to life when the "quarter note" is faster. But the piece doesn't have to be felt fast if you feel the half note pulse OR even the whole note pulse.
Nick Cutroneo - Classical Guitarist, performer/teacher/suzuki instructor

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:01 pm

mainterm wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:37 pm
...
Andante is a particularly challenging tempo to nail down in the 19th century. Even early music dictionaries such as Rousseau's, in 1826 ed., make an association between the tempo Andante and the Italian verb andare, which roughly means "to go" or "going". In the same music dictionary Rousseau equates Modéré (trans. It. Moderato) with Andante while also noting that Andantino is slower, not faster than Andante... Indeed he doesn't recognize "moderato" as an imported Italian tempo direction, he simply lists five principle ones: largo, adagio, andante, allegro, presto. I think this leaves a lot more ground for "andante" to cover than we think now, (especially if andantino was meant to be slower in some cases).

If you conceive this piece in cut time, feel the beat on the 1/2 note, then 1/4=160 = 1/2=80 which is a fairly moderate tempo, one that if you were walking this way wouldn't seem like you were frantically rushing, nor that you were strolling...but that you are definitely "going" somewhere.

Seems a fair interpretation of Andante to me. And there are other valid interpretations as well - as I mentioned, I'm playing around with slower tempos on this while still attempting to retain a sense of "going" somewhere...
Nick Cutroneo wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:49 am
...
I just listened to your newest version - quite a noticeable difference, in a positive way. To answer your question of why Sor indicated "Andante" - Andante simply means walking tempo. How are you conceiving the pulse, are you walking to the quarter note or to the half note? The half note pulse provides the ability to establish and maintain a longer line. We get these large sweeping arpeggios that come to life when the "quarter note" is faster. But the piece doesn't have to be felt fast if you feel the half note pulse OR even the whole note pulse.
Thank you both, mainterm and Nick, for listening to my latest rendition of Sor's Opus 35 #1 and share your thoughts about the Andante in this little piece. I surely agree with you both, if one feels the pulse (or the beat) in the half note then I'll be "walking" in a leisure way. So, clearly, the 1/4 = 160 bpm is a perfectly good tempo for this piece.

I'm now on the #2 which I've seen being played quite fast indeed by Prof. Edson Lopes. I'll try to come close to him... 8)
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Clayton
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Clayton » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 am

Hi all, I'd like to join in with this thread and am posting my rendition of No. 1 below. I have deliberately not read any of the discussion about this piece before posting but look forward to doing so shortly, and maybe posting another version.
1.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Clayton on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:55 am

Clayton wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 am
Hi all, I'd like to join in with this thread and am posting my rendition of No. 1 below. I have deliberately not read any of the discussion about this piece before posting but look forward to doing so shortly, and maybe posting another version.
Hi, Clayton, welcome to this thread and we all look forward for your contributions. However, please check your post above, as it comes with no attachment. You should re-edit it (use the button "Full Editor & Preview"button below the text editing field) and attach a wma file of your rendition (use the button "Attachments" below) or an mp3 file using the "Insert URL" button (looks like a two rings chain).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Clayton
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Clayton » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:54 am

Thanks Jorge. Now edited.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:45 am

Clayton wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 am
<snip> am posting my rendition of No. 1 below. <snip>
1.wma
Well done, Clayton. Line separation and phrasing was clear, rhythm rock-solid, melody stood out clearly, very pleasing performance. Keep going (that is, you are ready to move on to #2).
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:02 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:44 am
<snip> accented some notes and subdued others, slowed momentarily in m.24 and also towards the end as well, and, in the last measure,<snip>
Jorge, excellent rendition of music as written, phrasing improved, melody brought out, rhythm solid. I am inclined toward Clayton's rendition in 2/2 time with even more bringing out of the melody. I have the same comment on my own performance. However, I do not mean that we should stay on #1, but rather apply what we learn to the next study.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Fernando Sor, Opus 35 - shall we learn it together?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:01 am

Clayton wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 am
Hi all, I'd like to join in with this thread and am posting my rendition of No. 1 below. I have deliberately not read any of the discussion about this piece before posting but look forward to doing so shortly, and maybe posting another version.
...
Excellent rendition, Clayton, congratulations :D. Quite fast, indeed, but with a steady rhythm nonetheless. Also, your tone is good and the notes quite clear. This one is learned, to the #2, then... I'm already on it, trying to build up speed without making too many mistakes... :D

With this rendition of yours, the Table of Posted Records (TPR) becomes then:

Sor's Opus 35 recorded pieces as of 10Jan19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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