Sad about the state of Delcamp

Topics archived from Public Space and its subforums after a long period of inactivity, or redundant for some other reason. This section is read-only.
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Topics archived from Public Space and its subforums after a long period of inactivity, or redundant for some other reason. This section is read-only.
charles.patrick

Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by charles.patrick » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:12 pm

I've been visiting this forum off and on for a few years.

Originally I was blown away by the generosity. Somebody has put all this teaching material online for people who might not have access to a teacher. And furthermore, other people are spending their own free time to join in and record examples.... showing beginners how it should be done..... answering questions.

It's an absolute testament to the community.

But the last few weeks.... all I'm seeing is people asking for TABS, or people saying they want to use classical guitar to play arrangements of modern pop songs because the standard repertoire is "old" apparently... people asking if it's ok to interpret things however they want to make it easier to play.... people posting links to youtube videos that they consider "amazing" - but actually it's some horrendous teenage rendition of a nirvana song played on a nylon string guitar. It's utterly embarrassing quite frankly.

And the worst thing of all. The responses these people are getting in the forums are encouraging them and it seems the respondents are people who have no idea about music themselves!

I think I've used this phrase on another of my posts but I cannot remember where at the moment... but the phrase "the blind leading the blind" springs to mind.

Surely, if a fantastic resource like Delcamp is to have any value at all, somebody has to moderate the forums to make sure that the people giving advice are in some way qualified to do so.... and the people asking for advice are told in no uncertain terms that there is a rich tradition of classical music here. Asking for "TABS" or arrangements of popular dross to impress your girlfriend at a party is simply not what this site is about.

Or is it? Am I the one that has the wrong end of the stick?

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George Crocket
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by George Crocket » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:51 pm

This forum is hosted by M Delcamp for the benefit of the global classical guitar community. Membership of the forum is open to anyone with a bona fide interest in classical guitar. There are a number of rules laid down, all of which are aimed at promoting the smooth running of the forum and avoiding distractions from its aims. The Mod Team try to ensure that these rules are followed. Sometimes that requires a fine judgement. What we do not do, however, is make judgements of taste, or censor discussions that do not breach the rules of the forum. Nor do we determine which posts must be read by members. Each one must make their own decision as to what to read or what not to read.
George
2010 Stephen Eden spruce/cocobolo classical guitar
2012 Stephen Eden cedar/IRW classical guitar

drew p

Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by drew p » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:53 am

I mean... essentially it seems like you're getting upset because the spectrum of who the forum attracts is changing, and that people seem supportive of it.

On the first note, I like that it's changing because it's indicative that it's attracting more people. I like that it's attracting more people because it means the instrument is gaining popularity--don't doubt that some of the people asking for tabs today might be asking for the best facsimile edition of Giuliani's Grand Overture a couple years from now.

On the second, I'm glad people are supportive of it because classical players get a bad rep for being "stuffy" about it... I've had one such teacher and didn't touch a classical guitar for about a year afterward... so, I'm glad that everyone's not perpetuating that sort of thing.

About pop song arrangements... I have a theme and variations on Call Me Maybe that'd take any seasoned classical player a good 6mos-year to perfect. Playing it in the same set as Mertz and Carulli brings more people to the music of Mertz and Carulli. Classical & Romantic composers all have volumes worth of work based on "pop" songs of the day--theme & variations, potpourris, fantasias based on a theme, transcriptions, Giuliani's Rossinane pieces, etc etc. They did this for the exact same reasons people do it now, and in both instances it's been successful. Moreover, I think it's great that our form of the instrument and repertoire lends itself so well to learning how to be a master orchestrator of the guitar, it keeps both alive and thriving.

Just my perspective/opinion.

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guitarseller345645
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by guitarseller345645 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:14 am

drew p wrote:
On the second, I'm glad people are supportive of it because classical players get a bad rep for being "stuffy" about it... I've had one such teacher and didn't touch a classical guitar for about a year afterward... so, I'm glad that everyone's not perpetuating that sort of thing.
:bravo:

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Lawler
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by Lawler » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:34 am

You don't have the wrong end of the stick, charles.patrick. But I sense you're not going to win this argument.

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KeMe
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by KeMe » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:41 am

We are all guests at Mr. Delcamp's "house". We were all invited to enjoy, learn, and participate in any of the topics that are of interest to us.
This forum is not only for the masters of the instrument, but also for those who just love classical guitar even though they can't play.
About the tabs: keep in mind that there are "many roads to Rome" and each way may be different getting there, but the goal/destination is the same. When we have others taking a different route and we know the best way, then we can encourage and teach them that better way.
I see Delcamp forum is a community for those of us who truly enjoy every aspect of classical guitar. :discussion:
I feel very honored to even be a member here.

Kay :sorride:
Music touches the heart, but playing classical guitar can lift your heart and enrich your life.

waikuentsui
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by waikuentsui » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:25 am

Dear charlie.patrick:

From the forum statistic, I was the second person that read your post.
I wanted to reply, but being a new member and a CG beginner, I waited.

I wanted to say that I am very happy to be here in Delcamp.

This forum certainly has many elite guitarists, composers, teachers, luthiers and collectors.
It also has me and a whole lot of other members who all feel a sense of belonging because of common interest in CG.

As for your comment on people encouraging some so so performances, I have this to say.

I did my first performance in front of my family members this past Christmas.
I performed a simple 4 note per bar single note picking song.

Now picture this:
My wife, a Certified Concert Pianist and music teacher for 26 years;
My sons, both accomplished saxophone players in jazz bands;
My youngest daughter, Royal Conservatory Grade 8 in piano, Grade 6 in percussion and member of the Saskatchewan Youth orchestra;
They gave a standing ovation.

I am sure you will laugh you head off if you were in my living room.
But, to me, this is living......

Please don't feel sad. The forum is fine.
Yes, there are members, in particular, beginners like me who may ask stupid questions and write ignorant post.
On the other hand,
if there are no followers, there is no leader;
if there are no fans, there is no star;
if there are no members, there is no forum.

waikuentsui

Gaius46

Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by Gaius46 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:51 am

drew p wrote:I mean... essentially it seems like you're getting upset because the spectrum of who the forum attracts is changing, and that people seem supportive of it.

On the first note, I like that it's changing because it's indicative that it's attracting more people. I like that it's attracting more people because it means the instrument is gaining popularity--don't doubt that some of the people asking for tabs today might be asking for the best facsimile edition of Giuliani's Grand Overture a couple years from now.

On the second, I'm glad people are supportive of it because classical players get a bad rep for being "stuffy" about it... I've had one such teacher and didn't touch a classical guitar for about a year afterward... so, I'm glad that everyone's not perpetuating that sort of thing.

About pop song arrangements... I have a theme and variations on Call Me Maybe that'd take any seasoned classical player a good 6mos-year to perfect. Playing it in the same set as Mertz and Carulli brings more people to the music of Mertz and Carulli. Classical & Romantic composers all have volumes worth of work based on "pop" songs of the day--theme & variations, potpourris, fantasias based on a theme, transcriptions, Giuliani's Rossinane pieces, etc etc. They did this for the exact same reasons people do it now, and in both instances it's been successful. Moreover, I think it's great that our form of the instrument and repertoire lends itself so well to learning how to be a master orchestrator of the guitar, it keeps both alive and thriving.

Just my perspective/opinion.
I couldn't agree more.

If playing pop tunes also exposes the general population to Barrios I think that's wonderful.

I don't care for TAB but if it helps bring more people to the instrument and some of those eventually learn to read music and play some of the repetoire that's also good.


. HD

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David Norton
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by David Norton » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:36 am

I tend to agree with charles.patrick on much of this, or at least understand where he is coming from. There was a recording posted here recently of a well-known concert piece which was -- by any reasonable objective standard -- just dreadful. Yet it garnered the same type of "hey that was wonderful, thank you so much for sharing this!" reaction from members and moderators alike that also is given to recordings which really ARE top-drawer.

It seems there's been a real effort put forth lately to intentionally make people feel good about themselves here, as if this is some sort of group therapy forum set up in the guise of a CG forum. While there is usually no reason to be outright nasty, there really should be a higher degree of discernment, particularly from those in leadership/moderator roles. A so-so player is going to get all the wrong impressions from receiving high praise for mediocre results, though I can understand praising the EFFORT may be of more value than praising the OUTCOME. But if the same complimentary words are used for the mediocre work, then when these same words are given in response to another player's genuinely masterful achievements the impact is perforce lessened.

I'd far rather hear a 4-note piece played well, in proper rhythm and with proper phrasing, than hear a more difficult piece played poorly. Too many of us (yes, I said "US") are overambitious and attempt to perform or record things which are a notch or two or seven beyond our actual skill-set. We all know the old quote about how a man's reach should exceed his grasp, but that should be the exception and not the daily routine.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

Philosopherguy
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by Philosopherguy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:15 am

David_Norton wrote:I tend to agree with charles.patrick on much of this, or at least understand where he is coming from. There was a recording posted here recently of a well-known concert piece which was -- by any reasonable objective standard -- just dreadful. Yet it garnered the same type of "hey that was wonderful, thank you so much for sharing this!" reaction from members and moderators alike that also is given to recordings which really ARE top-drawer.

It seems there's been a real effort put forth lately to intentionally make people feel good about themselves here, as if this is some sort of group therapy forum set up in the guise of a CG forum. While there is usually no reason to be outright nasty, there really should be a higher degree of discernment, particularly from those in leadership/moderator roles. A so-so player is going to get all the wrong impressions from receiving high praise for mediocre results, though I can understand praising the EFFORT may be of more value than praising the OUTCOME. But if the same complimentary words are used for the mediocre work, then when these same words are given in response to another player's genuinely masterful achievements the impact is perforce lessened.

I'd far rather hear a 4-note piece played well, in proper rhythm and with proper phrasing, than hear a more difficult piece played poorly. Too many of us (yes, I said "US") are overambitious and attempt to perform or record things which are a notch or two or seven beyond our actual skill-set. We all know the old quote about how a man's reach should exceed his grasp, but that should be the exception and not the daily routine.

I can see where you are coming from and where previous posts are coming from. But, I believe that classical guitar has enough room in its repertoire to allow for all kinds of music. Further, no one is forcing anyone to watch any videos or listen to anything they think is below them. I would rather people point out a good attempt than nit-pick at unreasonable details endlessly (which also happens here). But, good constructive criticism can be appreciated as long as it's tasteful and not just trying to make someone in the image of what they think the piece should be like. But, you tend to encourage people more through praise than through rabid criticisms and telling them to give up on any hard pieces and go back to Twinkle twinkle. In fact, we expand our boundaries through trying harder pieces, not through perfecting quarter notes in the key of "x".

To a previous point: If tab works, why not use it? I read both tab and standard notation. It just depends on my mood and how well I want to learn any specific song. If I just want a sense of it, tab is quicker. If I really want to learn a song, I go to the notation. If tab brings more fans, who cares what people read? Do you really care how they get the caramel inside a Nestle Caramilk? Or, would you rather just enjoy the treat for what it is? Who cares how people learn the song, just let us hear it! Loud and proud! Musicians tend to get stuffy and think that their brand of music is the best. However, considering that so many different brands exist, someone must love each type. The argument that we must purify classical guitar of its pop filth (or any type of other filth) is rather stretching the boundaries of sensibility. Considering that on its own, the guitar is a newer instrument as some go, it too can be considered filth by some (and is considered so in certain fields). Lute players all over the world are crying for their songs back from the evil inbreed called the guitar! (Maybe even an old fashion guitar and guitar transcription burning will do the trick!)

Anyways, I see nothing wrong with people asking questions or responding to performances, or even to praising someone who might not be as worthy as others! In fact, most people who are proficient know it and need less praise and encouragement than a beginner who thinks about quitting guitar needs. But, It's all in good fun for the enjoyment of the guitar. If this forum is about something else, perhaps I am in the wrong place?! I doubt it! I enjoy my time on here. Everyone should learn to relax.

Regards,
Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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guitareleven
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by guitareleven » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:12 am

charles.patrick wrote:I've been visiting this forum off and on for a few years.

Originally I was blown away by the generosity....

But the last few weeks.... It's utterly embarrassing quite frankly.
So, read different threads.

Avoid stepping into the muck of messing around with popular tunes like "Guard my cows", or salacious dances like the chacona. Who knows to what gawd awfulnesses such stuff might lead? It's dangerous!

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by Andrew Fryer » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:44 am

Mainly I agree with charles.patrick. There are 10,000 websites for rock guitarists. So when a rock guitarist comes to a CG website and asks "does anyone here play CG?" I wonder. The politest assumption is that he's being ironic and echoing charles.patrick's sentiments.
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.

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riemsesy
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Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by riemsesy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:55 am

I see myself as a beginner. Though I studied the CG as a teenager for three years, now 25 years later picking it all up again and trying to move on.
I see a lot of topics here that remind me I have a lot to learn, and makes me think that CG-wise I still am an infant. So people need to grow too but in the meantime they ask questions that can make experienced players raise their eyebrow.

So if one wants to 'breath' the love for classical guitar and it's music on this forum, then the only way is to participate in that way.
A forum is like an organism and the participations of each member is what determines the spirit of it.
Best regards, Richard Frank
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Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by petermc61 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:38 am

charles.patrick wrote:
But the last few weeks.... all I'm seeing is people asking for TABS, or people saying they want to use classical guitar to play arrangements of modern pop songs because the standard repertoire is "old" apparently... people asking if it's ok to interpret things however they want to make it easier to play...

<cut>

And the worst thing of all. The responses these people are getting in the forums are encouraging them and it seems the respondents are people who have no idea about music themselves!

<cut>

Asking for "TABS" or arrangements of popular dross to impress your girlfriend at a party is simply not what this site is about.

Or is it? Am I the one that has the wrong end of the stick?
Hi Charles

I do think you are holding the wrong end if the stick!

Firstly, I don't think the number of requests for TABS is very large. Sometimes people are given a simple response, but often I have seen a response which gently encourages the OP to learn to read music. This is helpful.

Actually, if somebody learns a Nirvana song on a nylon string guitar, ask yourself why they would do that. I suspect it is because they like the sound of the instrument, otherwise they'd pump it out in their garage on an electric combo.

Who knows, from there some will progress to Beatles or folk music, and a small number of those one day will hear Tarrega or Llobet and say "wow, that's cool"!

If people have an interest in the classical guitar I frankly don't mind what they play on it. The fact that some of them will in time progress to appreciate some more traditional composers is good enough for me.

Cheers
Peter

fingerstyle

Re: Sad about the state of Delcamp

Post by fingerstyle » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:40 am

David_Norton wrote: tend to agree with charles.patrick on much of this, or at least understand where he is coming from. There was a recording posted here recently of a well-known concert piece which was -- by any reasonable objective standard -- just dreadful. Yet it garnered the same type of "hey that was wonderful, thank you so much for sharing this!" reaction from members and moderators alike that also is given to recordings which really ARE top-drawer.
I think I understand what charles.patrick means but the problem is not here at Delcamp. The real problem is that the web culture is exciting for many things (you are actually able to share informations with all the world in a way never imagined before) and dreadful for so many others (there are no more differences between sublime and ridiculous: everything is 'wonderful', everything gets five star ratings, as David Norton notices).
That's the way it is, I don't see solutions unless to open a private blog where you can select the visitors. But this means to lose the inner nature of a forum.
One has only to take the good sides and try to ignore the bad ones.
Best

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