Software for guitar notation

Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.
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Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.

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Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:27 pm

lagrima wrote:I always thought that notation was curious - we understand what it means (two voices), but it is not literal.

There are other editions of his work with similar passages where the editor indicates a 16th note rest for the upper voice and clearly separates the lower voice. If you are going to use Finale, that is probably the only way to make it work (with two layers). Temporally that is what is really happening anyway.
Yes, in a way the notation is curious, but it's concise and clear - and quite common in guitar scores.
You can see my treatment of it using Finale at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26827

Just to document it, the method I used is to put a dummy upper part note at the same position the base note is to go. If the base is also a black note, just superimpose it as a layer 2 note, with the tail down. If the base note has white space in it (half-note, etc), first hide the notehead of the dummy note (Special Tools, Hide Notehead tool; click on the measure, double click the note you want to hide, then select an empty shape from the table of shapes displayed), then superimpose the layer base note with tail down.

Actually, it doesn't really take that long to do.

lagrima

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by lagrima » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:37 pm

Yes, in a way the notation is curious, but it's concise and clear - and quite common in guitar scores.
You can see my treatment of it using Finale at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26827
Yes, but what does the notation really mean? I always assumed that it implies a temporal separation but legato in the arpeggio from the lower voice to the upper. A question - if you saw the same piece with a 16th rest note above the lower voice note would play the piece any differently?

Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:11 pm

lagrima wrote:
Yes, in a way the notation is curious, but it's concise and clear - and quite common in guitar scores.
You can see my treatment of it using Finale at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26827
Yes, but what does the notation really mean? I always assumed that it implies a temporal separation but legato in the arpeggio from the lower voice to the upper. A question - if you saw the same piece with a 16th rest note above the lower voice note would play the piece any differently?
As I see it, the (beginning) measure
measure1.jpg
is equivalent to
measure2.jpg
not
measure3.jpg
But the first measure is a more concise way of writing the second, without those ties. The third measure could be equivalent, as long as the player is not tempted to try and mute the rests. But, to me, it's a confusing way to write it, and could be misleading, because you shouldn't be playing rests there. The piece should flow along with the upper strings resonating nicely, and the melody line in the base being emphasised. To me, the notation of the first measure suggests that treatment, without the distractions of the other two examples.

It's a great little piece for beginners.

Gerry

WHOOPS! I JUST NOTICED THAT THE SECOND AND THIRD EXAMPLES ARE NOT QUITE RIGHT.

In the second example the 1/8 note on the third beat of the measure should be tied to the previous 1/8 note. And in the third example there should be an 1/8 note rest on the third beat of the measure in the upper part.
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Last edited by Gerry on Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lagrima

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by lagrima » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:04 am

A good illustration of the alternatives.

I agree, figure one IS more precise to the intention of the composer since it implies that the meter of piece should feel 2/2 (like the previous example) rather than 4/4. The other notations are not as clear as to what the meter of the piece really is.

bebenny

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by bebenny » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:16 pm

Hello,

there's also GuitarTeX (http://guitartex.sourceforge.net/en/gui ... ction.html), but I never actually used it.

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Jouni Stenroos
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Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Jouni Stenroos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:55 am

Hello,

If "Wysiwyg" program is not a requirement, then Lilypond is best there is, and it's free.
Picture 1.jpg
-Jouni
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Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:37 am

jounis wrote:If "Wysiwyg" program is not a requirement, then Lilypond is best there is, and it's free.
That looks good. Thanks, I'll check it out.

lam

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by lam » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:22 pm

Gerry wrote:
Notturno wrote: In Note Worthy was that very simple.
Thanks for sending me the NoteWorthy version of the measure. It looks like this:
NoteWorthy.jpg
I can do this in Finale too, without a problem. But it's not quite right, because it seems to show that the four 16th notes should be played, whereas, in fact, only the thumb should be striking the first note. The half-note should be over the top of the first 16th note.
When a note appears on a common stem adjacent to the same note the notes are played simultaneously (as one). They are never found written on on top of one another. In this case the half note tells you to sustain the note you just struck and the adjacent sixteenth note sets up the placement of the following sixteenth notes. Both systems of notation are very common in keyboard, fretboard and string literature and both are correct so we must be adaptable. Also, performance practice would, regardless of which notation was used, dictate all of the 16th notes would be allowed to sustain together because they, collectively, make up the harmony for this passage.
lam

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Steve Kutzer
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Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Steve Kutzer » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:00 am

Just thought I'd add something new to the mix.

I am now using Visio (a business and software diagraming tool) to create my own chord charts. Some pieces (say Sor Op. 31 No. 20) are easier for me to read as chord charts. But I haven't seen an easy to use chord charter. It seems like most software is aimed at the composer. What I'd love to be able to do is scan a page of music and have it fully interpreted by the software, ready for me to add my own notations like fingering or chord charts. Re-entering a song using Finale, Guitar Pro, Noteworthy or Tabledit is a lot of work, and every time I've been frustrated by limitations like voices.

This all got me to thinking and remembering my use of TeX, a very old typesetting language, that I had used for chess diagrams. I wonder if TeX is still in use anywhere and if people have adapted it to guitar notation? It might seem odd, but describing layouts in a markup language can often end up being easier to produce good results rather than wrestling with a WYSIWYG system. With those, a friend of mine likes to point out that "what you see is all you get." Donald Knuth initially invented Tex to do a better job of typestting mathematics. I would think it could do an awesome job with music.
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Jouni Stenroos
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Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Jouni Stenroos » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:21 am

Steve Kutzer wrote:Just thought I'd add something new to the mix.

I am now using Visio (a business and software diagraming tool) to create my own chord charts. Some pieces (say Sor Op. 31 No. 20) are easier for me to read as chord charts. But I haven't seen an easy to use chord charter. It seems like most software is aimed at the composer. What I'd love to be able to do is scan a page of music and have it fully interpreted by the software, ready for me to add my own notations like fingering or chord charts. Re-entering a song using Finale, Guitar Pro, Noteworthy or Tabledit is a lot of work, and every time I've been frustrated by limitations like voices.

This all got me to thinking and remembering my use of TeX, a very old typesetting language, that I had used for chess diagrams. I wonder if TeX is still in use anywhere and if people have adapted it to guitar notation? It might seem odd, but describing layouts in a markup language can often end up being easier to produce good results rather than wrestling with a WYSIWYG system. With those, a friend of mine likes to point out that "what you see is all you get." Donald Knuth initially invented Tex to do a better job of typestting mathematics. I would think it could do an awesome job with music.
The answer is again Lilypond :-). http://www.lilypond.org/

There have been other attempts to build on TeX, too, for example MusicTeX but as far as I know they have been limited. Lilypond is the only one that can be used to make almost everything, including modern music.

Below is the markup for the example in my previous post in this thread. Things get a little harder when you add more than two voices, the automatic system cannot always handle the middle voices without ugly overlapping, and once you have to do hand adjustment, it's not so neat and simple anymore. But it's doable, and not too difficult once you have learned the tricks. I've notated Bach's whole BWV995 and BWV997 with Lilypond without bigger problems.

-Jouni

Code: Select all

% A simple example of merged noteheads
% 2008-08-18 Jouni Stenroos

\version "2.11.35"

% Treble voice
up = \relative c' { 
    \time 4/4   
    a16 a' c a e' a, c a a, a' c a e' a, c a
    a,16 a' c a e' a, c a a, a' c a e' a, c a
}

% Bass voice
down = \relative c' {
    a2 a2
    a2 a2
}

\score {
  {
    % Here is the magic spell for the merged note heads.
    \override Staff.NoteCollision #'merge-differently-headed = ##t
    % The voices are combined here into one staff
    \context Staff << \new Voice { \voiceOne \up }
		                 \new Voice { \voiceTwo \down } >>
  }
}
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Steve Kutzer
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Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Steve Kutzer » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:31 am

Very cool, Jounis - thank you! I suppose most people would be scared by "programming", but that was my profession for a while, so to me a markup language is like an old friend.

I will definitely give this a shot.
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Sean

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Sean » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:33 am

MusEdit, MusEdit, MusEdit. 'nuff said.

Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:50 am

63Sean wrote:MusEdit, MusEdit, MusEdit. 'nuff said.
So does MusEdit allow you to merge noteheads for guitar music, as discussed in this thread?

Gerry

Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:57 am

jounis wrote: Below is the markup for the example in my previous post in this thread.
Thanks for posting the code Jouni. I played around with LilyPond a bit, but couldn't see how to merge the note heads. LP certainly makes very attractive scores.

Gerry

Gerry

Re: Software for guitar notation

Post by Gerry » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:12 pm

lam wrote:They are never found written on on top of one another.
I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing here. I referred to the process of placing one note over the other simply as a device to get the "merged notehead" effect which is used so frequently in guitar scores (see Jouni's example using LilyPond). On the other hand, as far as I can tell, the notation that Notturno provided with NoteWorthy is not so often seen in guitar music. Where it could occur is when there are two distinct voices which overlap and happen to share the same note.

Gerry

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