I was always talking about the learning process. Of course, it is quick and dirty to do these things on a piece of software. My point was that the "easy way" is often not the best way to learn. How can you can the dependence on software to be imaginary? People are complaining about how they can't transpose, can't hear the music unless they type it into the computer, can't read the piano music without hearing it, can't count the rhythms, can't write music legibly, etc, etc. (Granted, some of these have been in other threads.) I don't know how that doesn't fit the definition of dependence. How is that not imaginary? Call it non-problematic, call it insignificant if you want, but please don't call it imaginary.flameproof wrote:Perhaps you are. Now. But in the post that I addressed, you were talking about an imagined dependence on software, the putative laziness of guitar players, and the bizarre criticism that software makes some tasks too easy.ksjazzguitar wrote:I'm talking about things that affect the writing process, and more importantly, affect the learning process.
Yes, I think that reading music, transposing, writing things out, reading piano parts on the guitar, open score reading, thinking of music without the guitar, etc. - to me, those are important parts of the learning process that modern guitarists often try to avoid like the plague. I found your comment equating what I was saying to demanding that that we must use gut stings to be insulting. How could a reasonable person come to the conclusion that that is what I was advocating? But I'm sure you won't do it again.
Oh, wait, you did it again. Quill? You trivialized my comments on the history of music pedagogy by turning my into some straw-man demanding arbitrary pedantry. I guess that's easier than discussing the issue. And I didn't say that by-hand what the best way and that one must "eschew these software tools." I am saying that using the tools to avoid learning these skills is only hurting the learner. S/he can create a really cool looking piece of music with neat fonts and lots of cool stuff - but in the process has skipped over several tasks that will make them better musicians and better guitar players. They have sacrificed the arduous process that leads to real musicianship for the appearance of musicianship. Sure, use Finale, et al, to finish up a piece - I know I do. But don't short change your education. I feel a moral obligation as an educator to point that out. To me it is the difference between a tool and a crutch.flameproof wrote:No worries, I can be flexible. So, you believe that a person would learn faster or better if they were to eschew these software tools, and scribble out their arrangements/transpositions/compositions on manuscript paper (quill optional)?
Fine. I didn't mock your position, why are you mocking mine?flameproof wrote:I don't see it that way.
That's not really what I said. I said that, "sometimes the way way is not the good way." Sometimes the easy way is just as good or even better. Sometimes it is not. Sometimes the easy way is a lazy excuse. We'll have to disagree about that.flameproof wrote:But as you don't present any reasoning to support your assertions that the ability to use pen-and=paper is useful to the learning process, or that "old-fashioned learning" is a much better way to learn, or that the hard way is the better way, there's little to argue against.
I disagree, or people wouldn't need to depend on software to do it. I would not consider sitting down to a piece of music, whether it is written for guitar or piano, and spontaneously trying different keys to decide what key is best to do your arrangement - I wouldn't call that "trivial." "Educative", yes, "useful", yes, but not "trivial."flameproof wrote:But transposition is a trivial task, and understanding it in its entirety takes nothing more than a couple of moments of reflection.
Your mocking tone aside, I thought it was clear that I was talking about the practice of transposing on the guitar, not the simple concept of what it means to transpose.flameproof wrote:Having once achieved the lofty heights of understanding what transposition is I don't see how using software to automate the process is, in itself, undesirable.
I just think that some of these things that guitar players are trying so hard to avoid, are an important part of the learning process. As near as we can tell, they always have been. Until now that is. Now we can skip over those. It is also my observation, in and out of the university system, that guitar players who can't do these things, struggle. Guitar players who can do these things, excel. In my experience, there is a very clear correlation between these things. If you have a different experience, fine. I just felt that my view point wasn't being represented.
Actually, when I wrote that I was merely worried that some of my comments about the value of reading, etc. might set some people off - they weren't directed at you specifically. But, ironically, now that you are putting words into my mouth and mocking my position, things are getting a little flame-y. Yes, I did criticize your red herring of an analogy about the gut strings - but I think that pointing out logical fallacies is valid.flameproof wrote:I apologise if you think the tone of my post amounted to "flaming" (though I singularly fail to see how you could feel that way -- disagreeing with someone, or asking them to justify their assertions hardly amounts to flaming).ksjazzguitar wrote:I don't want to get into a flame war
But this is getting flame-y, so I will stop responding this thread. I realize that I sometimes say things that go against the flow, and I have a love of jousting at windmills, but that is no reason to mock my argument. Mock me all you want, but please keep your criticisms of my arguments valid. (As my wife will gleefully confirm, I am extraordinarily mockable.)
I've said all I can say on the subject and have started to repeat myself. People can agree with me or not. Most will be somewhere in the middle. But you can have the last word if you want. Just try to address my points without the silliness without putting words into my mouth, please.