Ventures and Copyright

Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.
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AsturiasFan

Ventures and Copyright

Post by AsturiasFan » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:31 am

What are the legalities of (re)arranging others' work?

The Ventures were a famous guitar band that exclusively played other peoples material (material that in fact was still current). How were they able to do that? Did they always ask permission and pay royalties? They copied other guitarists works but also copied orchestral compositions-- is there a legal difference?

The Ventures could be contrasted to Dred Scott, a homeless denver man, who does his own arrangement of purple rain. As soon as it hit Youtube, Prince's legal team asked that it be removed, but perhaps they changed their mind since videos of Scott's version are still up.

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Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by Gruupi » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:09 pm

It's hard to know exactly how every instance of covering a song is handled, but I have to think that The Ventures or their record company paid royalties for most of their recordings. I wonder how much information is available to the public on the numbers and dollars involved in this type of business.

dogonjon

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by dogonjon » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:23 pm

If your planning on marketing an arrangement of a copy written song you need permission from the songs composer. If you are playing cover songs in a bar ASCAP collects fees from venues to cover artist royalties. If you are arranging pieces as an academic exercise or for your own enjoyment there is no need for permission. If you are posting your arrangement on Youtube or another site the composer has the option to request you remove it but that may not be necessary. A well arranged cover of a song can rekindle interest in it. I did a solo version of "Black Hole Sun". I asked Chris Cornell for permission to post it but he never responded so I posted it anyway on Audimated in '09. I sent Chris a version and the link. I subsequently heard Chris do a solo version of "Black Hole Sun" on his "Songwriter" tour last year that incorporated many features of my arrangement. Soundgarden has since reformed, toured, recorded a new album that is just now breaking. It may just be a coincidence but when I e-mailed Chris he had just released "Scream" a mis match of urban beats backing Chris' screaming vocals... not very heavy instrumentally and Chris was left hanging out to dry by the music. I suggested to Chris that a little reprise of "Black Hole Sun" could "reignite the fire". I will take credit for Chris' solo version of "Black Hole Sun" and for the reformation and touring of Soundgarden by posting my own arrangement of "Black Hole Sun".
Last edited by dogonjon on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JohnPierce

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by JohnPierce » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:31 pm

dogonjon wrote:I will take credit for Chris' solo version of "Black Hole Sun" and for the reformation and touring of Soundgarden. [Emphasis added]
Shouldn't that be "accept responsibility"? :wink:

JohnPierce

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by JohnPierce » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:54 pm

AsturiasFan wrote: The Ventures were a famous guitar band that exclusively played other peoples material....
That is incorrect, though it's certainly true that they did not write their most popular singles. There's a reasonable number of original songs, composed by either individual members or the group as a whole, though few of them became popular as singles (at least in the US - Japan may be a different story). Wikipedia has a list of original songs though it's almost without doubt incomplete.

dogonjon

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by dogonjon » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:57 pm

jwp wrote:
dogonjon wrote:I will take credit for Chris' solo version of "Black Hole Sun" and for the reformation and touring of Soundgarden. [Emphasis added]
Shouldn't that be "accept responsibility"? :wink:
Maybe it's a matter of taste but I like Soundgarden and whether it's "accept responsibility" which sounds like a blame game I prefer to "Take Credit" for Soundgarden is one of the best bands to ever come from Seattle. Matt Camerons' (drummer for Soundgarden and Pearl Jam) personal sound engineer Jerry Amandis (co-wrote and sang "Tick- Tock the Clock for Well Water Conspiracy) was my room mate in 2000 and he, my brother and I spent a fair amount of time at the Soundgarden Rehearsal space on Aurora while Jerry was engineering the albums. We made our opinions known each time we passed in front of the security cameras as we screamed "Get the band back together!" Any way this is about arranging copy written music and the need for permission or not and how an arrangement can reignite a bands interest and careers.

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pogmoor
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Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by pogmoor » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:21 pm

Come on dogonjon, jwp was making a joke :roll:
But thanks for your first post which was very illuminating :)
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

dogonjon

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by dogonjon » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:36 pm

pogmoor wrote:Come on dogonjon, jwp was making a joke :roll:
But thanks for your first post which was very illuminating :)
We had a side bar about that and a little poke now and then is just fun but some times the poke back can't be resisted. BTW http://www.soundgardenworld.com/tour I'll take credit for that. This is relevant to the thread isn't it? My arrangement may have resulted in this. I hang out with Jay and Ron, guys from the Surfaries and the Ventures covered their big hit "Wipe Out" which made the hit even bigger.

JohnPierce

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by JohnPierce » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:26 pm

dogonjon wrote:I hang out with Jay and Ron, guys from the Surfaries and the Ventures covered their big hit "Wipe Out" which made the hit even bigger.
That gave me an idea.... As a way to bring the classical guitar to the public's attention, somebody should work up CG arrangements for classic surf music. As a starting place, I suggest the dual guitar version of "Pipeline" that Dick Dale and Stevie Ray Vaughan did.

Or maybe better, "Misirlou". That'd get the ethnic music lovers - it's a rebetiko - as well as the general public. It could be named "Misirlou de la Torres", which would give people something to make up stories about ("Yeah... it's like a bull fight song... you know, about the Spanish bullfighters - you know, the torres, the guys with the capes and stuff - going out to like face the bulls and how much, you know, like misery it causes them").

dogonjon

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by dogonjon » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:03 pm

jwp wrote:
dogonjon wrote:I hang out with Jay and Ron, guys from the Surfaries and the Ventures covered their big hit "Wipe Out" which made the hit even bigger.
That gave me an idea.... As a way to bring the classical guitar to the public's attention, somebody should work up CG arrangements for classic surf music. As a starting place, I suggest the dual guitar version of "Pipeline" that Dick Dale and Stevie Ray Vaughan did.

Or maybe better, "Misirlou". That'd get the ethnic music lovers - it's a rebetiko - as well as the general public. It could be named "Misirlou de la Torres", which would give people something to make up stories about ("Yeah... it's like a bull fight song... you know, about the Spanish bullfighters - you know, the torres, the guys with the capes and stuff - going out to like face the bulls and how much, you know, like misery it causes them").
I'm all over that! After strenuous and tedious research (about ten seconds) I've determined a solo classical guitar version of "Pipeline" is totally doable. The hardest part is the descending pizzicato tremolo lick. I'll ask Jay (we're going skiing together soon) what he thinks of that, he still plays with Dick all the time. My solo pop sets are all arranged for Classical guitar and vocal and about half of it works as solo guitar instrumentals. ELP, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Bruce Springsteen, Nine Inch Nails, Stone Temple Pilots, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Moody Blues, David Bowie, Tom Petty, John Mayer, Jack Johnston and many more for the set I call "Dark Noise"(refering to Black, Black Hole Sun, Paint it Black, Dancing in the Dark, Dark Side of the Moon medley, Hurt (by NIN covered by "The Man in Black-Johnny Cash" every one calls this a Johnny Cash song), Nights in White Satin...). I want to get my band to try this set 'Unpluged', Classical guitar, upright bass, cajon and vocals.

JohnPierce

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by JohnPierce » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:24 am

dogonjon wrote:My solo pop sets are all arranged for Classical guitar and vocal and about half of it works as solo guitar instrumentals.... Nights in White Satin...
Altogether excellent! I wish more people would do that. I think it'd stimulate a lot more interest in CG both as an instrument and a set of techniques. Nights in White Satin sounds so good as an instrumental on CG (or steel string) that you'd think it'd been written for it.

Also, while not fitting your "black" theme, Unchained Melody is another piece that sounds like it was written for solo CG. Should be a real winner for weddings - you'd have half the women in the room in tears six bars in.

dogonjon

Re: Ventures and Copyright

Post by dogonjon » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 am

jwp wrote:
dogonjon wrote:My solo pop sets are all arranged for Classical guitar and vocal and about half of it works as solo guitar instrumentals.... Nights in White Satin...
Altogether excellent! I wish more people would do that. I think it'd stimulate a lot more interest in CG both as an instrument and a set of techniques. Nights in White Satin sounds so good as an instrumental on CG (or steel string) that you'd think it'd been written for it.

Also, while not fitting your "black" theme, Unchained Melody is another piece that sounds like it was written for solo CG. Should be a real winner for weddings - you'd have half the women in the room in tears six bars in.
Good call jwp. I slaved for a good 20 seconds on that one.

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