Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

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Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.

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AlexRaven

Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by AlexRaven » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:13 pm

robin loops writes :
They still might require some touch up work but I think that this might solve your problem.
Here is my report on file sizes:
Original mus file :55803 bytes
File after exporting/importing trick : 55374 bytes
By the way, there is no export midi option in Finale2012 (you can save file as midi but by my case is only 96 bytes). Musescore has such option but the result is disastrous.
So we see that after export/import trick via xml we have lost 429 bytes of information. It is definitely shows that export works incorrectly. By the way the size of exported xml file is 289667bytes.
If we load imported from finale xml in Musescore then we can see the very strange thing (I cannot attach xml because it is forbidden on this site).
Think for yourself.
Alex Raven

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:23 pm

Why not make a pdf of the anomalies so we can all see the problem? I must confess I have no idea what AlexRaven is trying to tell us; is he hinting darkly at some kind of conspiracy?

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pogmoor
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by pogmoor » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:31 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:Why not make a pdf of the anomalies so we can all see the problem? I must confess I have no idea what AlexRaven is trying to tell us; is he hinting darkly at some kind of conspiracy?
Agreed, I also find this very puzzling as I have never had any real problems interconverting between music formats :?
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

AlexRaven

Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by AlexRaven » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:52 pm

No problem.
First attachment - pdf from original file, second - pdf from file after export/import trick.
Alex
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:57 pm

?? So what's the problem? There's nothing in either version that a tiny amount of manual editing won't remedy. I don't really get it.

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robin loops
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by robin loops » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:05 pm

As I mentioned all the ties will show as single notes values, but also if it's multi instrument file saved as a zero type it will try to import as a single instrument with separate voices for different instruments, As far as flags going up or down to separate multiple voices go, there will be problems. Trills and other ornamentation may not show up correctly and of course any fingering indications, etc. The problem arises from the fact that notation software has more information than midi is capable of conveying and the workaround for that (under the digital hood) sometimes is to use MIDI CC information (but each program can have it's own protocol for these as they are only universal for standard midi options and not information regarding ties and other visual characteristics of a piece of sheet music. MIDI was created sometime in the 70-'s (I believe) and is a very simple language and in many ways is not suitable for what we demand of it with modern music production. Fortunately software developers have created ingenius methods of expanding the ability to use midi more advanced than ever but there are still limitations to the MIDI format.

Pogmoor: Have you ever imported a MIDI file into a notation program? If you got instant correct results (ties, voices separated correctly, etc., please tell which one you have used that was able to extrapolate or interpolate the missing information that MIDI doesn't carry. I haven't used anything in a few years but as of the last time I did, both Sibeluis and Finale were worthless (but at that time so was the scanning feature) at separating multiple voices and giving the correct visual elements.

Persoinally I find nothing simple about having to manually separate several voices that have been arbitrarily assigned to voices and to change all the tied note values into the correct tied notes (as opposed to single notes with combined duration) and as far as adding any kind of fingering notation and other corrections. At that point it really is just as easy (if not easier) to write it out by hand.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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robin loops
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompability

Post by robin loops » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:07 pm

jwp wrote:The fact that some programs may be able to turn some midi files into more or less correct notation does not mean that midi files are designed for that purpose.

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you don't want to do it using MusicXML, which is designed for that purpose (among others), and which is readily understood by both programs?

MIDI File Format Specification 1.1 may be found here: http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~ich/classes ... format.pdf. I don't know whether that is up-to-date. The MIDI Manufacturer's Association will sell you a copy of the complete current MIDI documentation as used by them: http://www.midi.org/techspecs/.

Neither of those is likely to do you much good, since they say nothing about turning midi files into notation nor about turning notation into midi files.
According to the finale site you can still open an export midi dialog box and still have the option to choose between type 0 and type 1 as well as a midi tempo map. http://www.finalemusic.com/usermanuals/ ... TYPDLG.htm
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by pogmoor » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:34 pm

robin loops wrote:Pogmoor: Have you ever imported a MIDI file into a notation program? If you got instant correct results (ties, voices separated correctly, etc., please tell which one you have used that was able to extrapolate or interpolate the missing information that MIDI doesn't carry. I haven't used anything in a few years but as of the last time I did, both Sibeluis and Finale were worthless (but at that time so was the scanning feature) at separating multiple voices and giving the correct visual elements.
To illustrate the effectiveness of various forms of music transfer I've attached five pdf files exported from Sibelius, 1) a simple two part piece, 2) the same piece exported to xml and then re-imported, 3) the piece exported to midi and reimported, 4) exported to pdf, scanned with PhotoScore and reimported, 5) exported to pdf, read with PDFtoMusic Pro and reimported. This illustrates that all these methods of transfer - midi, music xml, scanning and conversion from a pdf (providing the pdf is created by a music program) work well for for simple tasks. Music xml is much the best method for more complex scores, though as Alex's example suggests there is often the need for a certain amount of editing. Scanning works ok with clearly printed scores but with more than two voices per stave the score often needs some editing, and PDFtoMusic (in my experience) works well with pdfs from some programs but not others.
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Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

AlexRaven

Re: Finale and Musescore incompatibility

Post by AlexRaven » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:39 am

Let's return to beginning. This topic is named 'Finale and Musescore incompatibility'.
Some people suggested to use xml for transferring. Look what happens. We export Finale mus to xml then open this in Musescore -and what do we see? Here is pdf created by MuseScore. By the way, Finale is incompatible with Sibelius. If we open exported Finale xml in Sibelius then original file will be distorted. Anyone who has Finale and Sibelius can easily do my procedure and see the result.
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Re: Finale and Musescore incompatibility

Post by pogmoor » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:11 am

AlexRaven wrote:By the way, Finale is incompatible with Sibelius.
Look at it from the other point of view: different developers write music programs based on entirely different approaches to coding and which include a wide variety of layout information in addition to the simple information about pitch duration and voicing that constitutes the music itself. Why should we expect therefore that files from one program should be transferable to another? It is great that someone has come along (Michael Good by name) and created Music xml as a transfer medium and it is a surprise that it is as good as it is, but in Michael Good's own words:
The accuracy is a function of both the format and the software. MusicXML software provides the most accurate interchange that has ever existed for computerized music notation programs. If you are trying to capture pixel-perfect page images or bit-perfect audio recordings, MusicXML won't do that, but no other interchange software will do it either.
[Source: http://www.finaletips.nu]

I have found it perfectly straightforward to transfer files between Finale and Sibelius; a few years ago I adopted Sibelius as my main program for writing arrangements, at which point I transferred all my extant arrangements from Finale with no difficulty. A year or two later I collaborated with a musician in the US who needed to convert 30 or so baroque chamber music scores from Finale to Sibelius. That was done with no complaints; he was able to edit the scores and get exactly the layouts he wanted. The score you have just posted requires a few minutes of editing to fix the layout, then it will be fine.

It seems to me entirely wrong to say that Finale is incompatible with Sibelius or that Finale is incompatible with Musescore.

By the way Michael Good has improved the Music xml format over the years and was hired by Finale a year or two back, so presumably he is continuing the development.
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

AlexRaven

Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by AlexRaven » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:45 am

Pogmoor writes:
It seems to me entirely wrong to say that Finale is incompatible with Sibelius or that Finale is incompatible with Musescore
I can't agree with you. Here are my arguments. This file is obtained by Sibelius importing of Finale xml export file and saving as sib file and then exported in Sibelius 7.1.3 to pdf. I cannot attach sib - it is forbidden of this site but if interested I can send sib file to you by email. Or you can take my mus file and do the same thing if you have Finale 2012 and Sibelius 7.1.3. Look at this file and explain me - is there a compatibility?
Alex
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JohnPierce

Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by JohnPierce » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:29 am

It looks to me like this is a futile discussion. AlexRaven wants perfect transfer of music notation between two programs. That can't be done in all cases by current programs, no matter the method used to make the transfer. There's not really anything more that can be said about that.

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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by pogmoor » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:38 am

It looks as if the problem with this file is that you have somehow ended up with different instruments in the two programs. As the guitar is a transposing instument (by an octave) you have to be careful to get the music imported into the correct octave. When you import an xml file to Sibelius you are presented with two options: Let Sibelius choose instruments and Use instrument names from MusicXML file. If the Finale file uses 'Classical Guitar' as its instrument then checking both boxes should give you the right result. Alternatively you can just select all the music and transpose it down an octave.

Edit: Noticing jwp's post I agree in a way. What I disagree with is Alex's use of the word incompatible as this give the impression it is not possible to transfer music between programs whereas in fact it is entirely straightforward.
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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robin loops
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by robin loops » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:16 pm

jwp wrote:It looks to me like this is a futile discussion. AlexRaven wants perfect transfer of music notation between two programs. That can't be done in all cases by current programs, no matter the method used to make the transfer. There's not really anything more that can be said about that.
That's absolutely correct. And unfortunately it's just a question of finding the method that will require the least amount of fixing and editing to correct erroneous results, which really sometimes can just re-entering all the notes manually and remaking the score in the new program. It's also good practice for the UI of whatever program you're using as wedll as good review of the music itself...
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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pogmoor
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Re: Finale and Musescore imcompatibility

Post by pogmoor » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:01 pm

robin loops wrote:...which really sometimes can just re-entering all the notes manually and remaking the score in the new program...
IMHO that's unduly negative. As I said above it's usually fairly straightforward to transfer music between programs.
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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