Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Deepflows
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Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Deepflows » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:11 am

Hello everyone,

I've been taking guitar lessons for a few months now and I've so far used an old solid top Hagstrom guitar which I bought for 15€. My Hagstrom, great for its price as it may be leaves a lot to be desired tonally, though.

My teacher recently got his hands on a 1998 Raimundo y Aparicio RA 20 and he'd be willing to sell it to me for 450€. Unfortunately, I've so far been unable to find any information about the Instrument online. I've had the chance to play it for a couple of hours, and while it initially sounded a bit dull, I think it opened up significantly after 2 hours or so. Still, it would be much easier to decide for or against the guitar if I had a bit more information about it.

Alternatively, I could get a Hanika 58 pf for 1000€. I'd also be interested to learn how the RA20 and the Hanika compare and if the Hanika is worth twice as much as the RA.
Last edited by Deepflows on Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Beowulf
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Re: Need advise: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Beowulf » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:42 pm

Perhaps some useful information here:

viewtopic.php?t=55370

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31455
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es335
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Re: Need advise: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by es335 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:19 pm

That’s a quite difficult situation. There’s indeed no information available on the model RA 20 which is a somehow strange in other aspects as well, because RA is and was no typical prefix for Raimundo guitars and the model numbers is comparatively low, which means higher Raimundo models have higher number!?

Do you have additional information available, particularly woods being used, solid or laminated or even pictures? 450€ is not small and there are a lot of other nice guitars on the market at this price tag.

Hanika guitars are good and reliable guitars but do have their „special“ sound which you will like or not. BTW there is a PF60 on the market for 850€ which is a better bargain than a 1000€ PF58! :wink:

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souldier
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Re: Need advise: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by souldier » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:26 pm

Deepflows wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:11 am
Still, it would be much easier to decide for or against the guitar if I had a bit more information about it.
I personally don't see why having more information should make it easier to decide. If you are trying these guitars in person, then I wouldn't bother trying to get additional information as it will colour your judgment. If after playing a guitar you think it doesn't have good sound or playability for the price, then move on to something else.
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Keith
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Re: Need advise: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Keith » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:26 pm

To the OP: I have a feeling the guitar is question may be an Antonio Aparicio AA20. The guitar has plenty of reviews on line. The guitar is cedar and a "colloquial mahogany" (that is, probably not a true mahogany but one of the woods colloquially known as "mahogany"). The AA20 may have been bastardized to RA20 when Raimundo and Aparicio were selling low end student guitars together. Given the guitar is likely to be a low end factory 450 euros might be a good price but I suspect you could do better. There is a good adage, spend as much as you can afford, and this makes sense when buying a guitar. That said, if you like the RA20 and it sounds good and feels good then 450 euros might be a good price.

Ramon Amira, a member here, used to, or may still, sell Raimundos and you might want to PM him as he might have the inside scoop on the guitar, a fair price, etc.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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Deepflows
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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Deepflows » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:34 am

Hello everyone,

thank you very much for your ideas and suggestions so far!
es335 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:19 pm
Do you have additional information available, particularly woods being used, solid or laminated or even pictures?
It's a spruce top and according to my guitar teacher (who has been playing for 50 years, I've known him for more than 8 years and consider him a friend, so I don't expect him to lie to me) it's a full solid guitar. Not sure about the exact type of wood used for the back and sides, though.
Hanika guitars are good and reliable guitars but do have their „special“ sound which you will like or not. BTW there is a PF60 on the market for 850€ which is a better bargain than a 1000€ PF58!
I fully agree about that "special" sound. I quite like the sound and versatility of this particular 58 PF, but I can see how someone might dislike it, too. It certainly is very different from the RA20. They're both really good in their own ways to my (unsophisticated) ear. Thanks for mentioning the PF60, too. Certainly seems like *quite* the bargain. I know and trust the seller of the PF58, though. That's worth a lot to me.
souldier wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:26 pm
I personally don't see why having more information should make it easier to decide. If you are trying these guitars in person, then I wouldn't bother trying to get additional information as it will colour your judgment. If after playing a guitar you think it doesn't have good sound or playability for the price, then move on to something else.
Both guitars play and sound just fine to me and I fully understand where you're coming from. I still need to know what I'm dealing with, personally.
Keith wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:26 pm
To the OP: I have a feeling the guitar is question may be an Antonio Aparicio AA20. The guitar has plenty of reviews on line. The guitar is cedar and a "colloquial mahogany" (that is, probably not a true mahogany but one of the woods colloquially known as "mahogany").
Hm - interesting! This guitar most certainly doesn't have a cedar top, though. I really should have mentioned this!
Ramon Amira, a member here, used to, or may still, sell Raimundos and you might want to PM him as he might have the inside scoop on the guitar, a fair price, etc.
Thank you, I'll do just that. In the meantime, I'd be quite happy about any additional ideas concerning this mistery guitar.

Also, here's a few pictures, hopefully they can help.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

es335
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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by es335 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:54 am

Though still no clue about the model number, all details from the pictures indicate that this guitar was in the top range of their guitar models. I.e. solid spruce top, solid rosewood back & sides, ebony fingerboard, pearloide inlay at the tie block, good quality tuners and last but not least the signed label, which usually indicates a hand/luthier made instrument.

Provided you like hear playability and sound, that’s a real bargain IMHO irrispective of any uncertainty about the model number! Maybe Ramon can shed some light on this?

Concerning the other alternative, Hanika PF58, you must take into account that they are recommended and usually strung with Savarez Carbon strings, which can make a big difference tonewise! :wink:

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Keith
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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Keith » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 am

So much for the AA morphed into the RA theory. Given what we know from the photo the guitar looks to be a good deal for the price. As for the model number and back ground info, PM Ramon or e-mail Raimundo or Aparicio. If anyone should know it would one of those three people.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Guero » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:35 am

Deepflows wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:34 am
fully agree about that "special" sound.
es335 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:19 pm
Hanika guitars are good and reliable guitars but do have their „special“ sound which you will like or not.
Please help me! What is the "special" sound of the Hanikas? You read/hear this regularly so maybe there's a new myth coming up... :)

es335 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:19 pm
BTW there is a PF60 on the market for 850€
I think we are talking about the same guitar. It seems that it has been one of so many fake offers on eB..Klein.
Disappeared anyways.

Greetings, Güero.

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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by es335 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:37 pm

Guero wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:35 am
... Please help me! What is the "special" sound of the Hanikas? You read/hear this regularly so maybe there's a new myth coming up... :)
Special in a way that they sound quite neutral to be in a good sense but lack the tonal depth and character as other brands do have. Soundwise not my cup of tea why I despite having tried quite some never was tempted to buy one. But I must admit that they are good, reliable and quite universal instruments.
Guero wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:35 am
... I think we are talking about the same guitar. It seems that it has been one of so many fake offers on eB..Klein.
Disappeared anyways...
Not sure about this ad being a fake offer or not. In my personal experience eB...Klein... has been a good and reliable platform up to now with one or the other bargain showing up occasionally, which were no fakes. Nevertheless Hanika is such a well known brand that there might be a higher risk!?

Cheers, es335

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Keith
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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Keith » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:26 pm

To the OP: If the RA 20 meets your needs then buy it. You posted you trust your teacher so there is a check on the side to buy it. The price seems to be good and the guitar looks well cared for so there is another check on the side to buy it. You can go to the European equivalent of Guitar Center and play a lot of dogs which cost the same as the RA 20. Heck, you can do a crap shoot and go to the bay and buy either the best guitar since sliced bread or a dog that puts to shame any canine running about. Put another check on the side to buy it. You will drive yourself crazy, or let us drive you crazy, with 1001 suggestions.

You may never find any info on the historical nature of this model but does it really matter? Let's say someone posts, "Oh yeah, the RyA RA 20....what a dog!" or someone else posts, "OH yeah, the RyA RA 20, what a great guitar". Will that swing you one way or the other or will your experience with the guitar as well as your teacher's input into the equation?
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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Jose Ramirez III

Deepflows
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Re: Need advice: Raimundo y Aparicio RA20

Post by Deepflows » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:19 am

Keith wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 am
As for the model number and back ground info, PM Ramon or e-mail Raimundo or Aparicio. If anyone should know it would one of those three people.
I already talked to Ramon, he doesn't know anything about the guitar, either. Since the instrument was signed by Aparicio, I think that he ought to be the right person to ask about it. He doesn't seem to have a website anymore, though. Might be tough to actually get into contact with them.

Guero wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:35 am
Please help me! What is the "special" sound of the Hanikas? You read/hear this regularly so maybe there's a new myth coming up... :)

Unfortunately, I can't really think of any way to describe it any better than es335 already did. It's definitely neutral without sounding bland. Powerful but not boomy. Brilliant in a "pearly" sense but it doesn't really sing (compared to, say, the RA20 which sings). I could imagine playing a wide variety of pieces or even styles on the Hanika and I'm convinced that it would do really well. In fact I've heard my teacher play ballads, blues, pop arrangements, bossa nova, classical pieces and even flamenco inspired stuff on it, and all of it sounded great on the Hanika (the flamenco is obviously a better on a flamenca). So in that sense, I'd call it a bit of a Jack of all trades. Which implies that it's a master of none, and maybe that's true, but I honestly think that it's damn well competent relative to its price. And as I said, it definitely has its own voice.

Disclaimer: I'm still a beginner, my ears are probably dumb compared to yours and all of this is just a purely subjective attempt at answering your question in good faith.
es335 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:37 pm
Not sure about this ad being a fake offer or not. In my personal experience eB...Klein... has been a good and reliable platform up to now with one or the other bargain showing up occasionally, which were no fakes.
I've had nothing but good experiences with the platform as far as instruments go as well. I only deal with people willing to and capable of acting with a bit of common courtesy, which may help. I've contacted people to find out what was up with their "too good to be true" offers only to receive a fraud warning from eB.. Klein... a few hours later, too, though. A >3000€ 60 PF for under 900€ seems like a hell of a bargain, really.
Keith wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:26 pm
To the OP: If the RA 20 meets your needs then buy it.

[...]

You may never find any info on the historical nature of this model but does it really matter? Let's say someone posts, "Oh yeah, the RyA RA 20....what a dog!" or someone else posts, "OH yeah, the RyA RA 20, what a great guitar". Will that swing you one way or the other or will your experience with the guitar as well as your teacher's input into the equation?
Yeah no you're right. I've already made up my mind and I bought both guitars. The Hanika is just too good of an allrounder to let go and the RA20 seems to sing a bit sweeter every day. This means that I won't have much of a budget for any music / hobby related expenses for a while, but to be honest, for the moment I can confidently say that I've got everything I need. Now to actually practice some more (which, at least for now, is more fun on these new instruments).

That said, I'll still try to find out more about the RA20. Knowing an instrument's history and specifics is something I quite enjoy irrespective of other considerations. I'll also update this thread if I come across any more Information, since I suspect there's a good chance that in the future someone looking for Information about the RA20 is going to find our conversation as their only result.

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