Walnut vs IR Hauser style

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Chris Sobel
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:37 am

mmapag wrote:
Chris Sobel wrote:
Lovemyguitar wrote: I would say the opposite! To me, a Hauser has an understated aesthetic: building one with highly figured or otherwise visually unusual wood just seems wrong, somehow, especially if the idea is to "copy" that particular 1937 model. Of course, if that is what a person wants, they can commission whatever they like, but if you are building one for no-one in particular, the more traditional, the better, I should think.
Yes, but the Hausers were built with Brazilian or Indian rosewood for the most part. I'm just saying if I were a buyer looking for a 37 Hauser I would probably not pull the trigger on a walnut guitar if I were just browsing the Internet. I would have to play it. That's all.

The OP specifically asked "as a prospective buyer", not as a "builder". I would build with walnut for sure. It just wouldn't be my go to if I were in the market.

Chris
Chris,
Over the next 10 or 20 years, I believe our world will change in regard to woods. It is already happening with the growing list of Cites restricted woods. I am in favor of any wood that is more available and less likely to be restricted. Much of the recent research indicates, there is only incidental differences in tone between most back and side woods and Walnut has some nice tonal properties. I'm not a luthier looking to make a guitar sellable. So, I get to choose my preference just based on what I think I'd like. Also, I have Black Walnut on my property and I like them. For me, it would be a personal connection. FWIW
Sure, I can't argue against a personal preference for that wood--I'm sure it would be special considering the trees on your property. Perhaps you could get some sets out of one?

I would like to challenge you however on the statement stating that most of the recent research indicates there are only incidental differences in back and sides woods. Which research are you thinking of? If it's the Leonardo project, that is in fact not the conclusion that the research indicated. It simply showed that versus Indian rosewood, a group of listeners did not have a preference of one guitar over the other. That's a very different conclusion than the conclusion that there are minimal tonal differences between back and sides woods.

Thanks,

Chris
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:43 am

Waddy Thomson wrote:Walnut is an excellent wood for a guitar! It also doesn't take a lot of figure to make a beautiful instrument, in my opinion! This was not an expensive set of wood!
ImageImageImageImage
Looks great!

That's what I had in mind when I said highly figured, at least compared to most walnut out there.

Chris
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Michael.N.
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:17 am

'This study, however, shows that first-rate guitar players and experienced listeners alike are unable either to register a clear preference between the two sets of guitars or to distinguish between both wood groups at anything better than chance levels.

Furthermore, under non-blind conditions, the non-tropical wood guitars saw, on average, a marked fallback in preference of some 50%. This would indicate that sound perception is strongly influenced by visually transmitted information such as the aesthetic qualities of an instrument, or the preconceptions surrounding good and bad tonewoods that their recognition allows.'

That's their own conclusion of their own study. The results are very similar to other rigorous studies done on violins, except they are more concerned with old vs new. There are other tests that also show that the results are hardly surprising. It's a growing body of evidence.
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:41 am

All 3 pieces in the following picture are examples of American black walnut. The example on the right of the picture is AB walnut that was grown in the UK. It has quite a number of rich, contrasting colours. Quite exotic looking. The other examples are much more typical of AB Walnut, one with a coloured varnish applied. That was just a test, I would normally apply less tint if I wanted to add a bit of warmth. I've even had the stuff looking like EI Rosewood when I went a bit crazy with the alkanet dye. It looked incredibly rich but ultimately I thought that walnut should probably look a bit like walnut. Of course you can get some very spectacular examples with very high figuring and marble type grain.

Image
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:12 am

Of course a luthier is free to use whatever wood he likes (if the customer is willing to purchase a guitar with that particular choice of timber). And of course CITES and the protection of tropical timber in general are an issue. But at the end of the day you have to answer the question why to use a wood for a replica, a 1937 Hauser I, that the original builder never used? Satinwood for a Simplicio copy - that's fine with me. But walnut for a Hauser...I don't know. I would prefer rosewood for the reason of authenticity.
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:53 am

That's for a 'replica'. There are many varieties of basing an instrument on a particular maker or model - replica, copy, based on, in the spirit of, in the style of. There's no one definition of what these terms mean, although you might say that some of them have more specific meanings. If you used the term replica in terms of a violin it would almost certainly mean a modern violin that was made to be as exact in every way to something like a specific Strad model - including all the wear, scratches, dings. Hardly anyone does that kind of thing when it comes to classical guitars, very little demand for it.
So 'Hauser style' (in the original SimonM's topic title) would not preclude the use of walnut IMO. Hauser replica most certainly would. Hauser copy - probably. 'Based on', 'in the style' or 'in the manner' - most probably not. Much would also depend on how closely the instrument was followed. Not much use in using EI Rosewood if the rest of the instrument isn't really being done in the Hauser style ie. a paper thin Torres soundboard. in fact a Walnut instrument that followed the Hauser principles might be closer. Of course there are all sorts of views on these things, a lot of Grey areas.
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by simonm » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:35 am

gjo wrote:A friend of mine once joked about the many grading systems saying, "Well, I am a master guitarmaker and passed all examinations, so every piece of wood I use is 'Mastergrade'." And I have to say that he is right because his guitars are very good.
Parallel to that logic, unless you are Mr or Ms Hauser, your guitars will not be Hausers whereas as if they build a Banjo or Uke, it will be a Hauser. :-)

Both these sets will probably end up as a Hauser "style" guitars. One is most likely going to be a keeper. I think that particular set of walnut is lovely. However, that doesn't tell us much about how it will sound.

This is the Walnut.
walnut.jpg
This is the Rosewood.
ir.jpg
Slight edit in case anyone was in doubt as to which was the walnut.
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Last edited by simonm on Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by mmapag » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:26 pm

Michael.N. wrote:'This study, however, shows that first-rate guitar players and experienced listeners alike are unable either to register a clear preference between the two sets of guitars or to distinguish between both wood groups at anything better than chance levels.

Furthermore, under non-blind conditions, the non-tropical wood guitars saw, on average, a marked fallback in preference of some 50%. This would indicate that sound perception is strongly influenced by visually transmitted information such as the aesthetic qualities of an instrument, or the preconceptions surrounding good and bad tonewoods that their recognition allows.'

That's their own conclusion of their own study. The results are very similar to other rigorous studies done on violins, except they are more concerned with old vs new. There are other tests that also show that the results are hardly surprising. It's a growing body of evidence.
+1. This is what I was referring to. Thanks Michael.
Gorgeous pics Waddy!! :bravo:
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Lovemyguitar » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:50 pm

Chris Sobel wrote:That's what I had in mind when I said highly figured, at least compared to most walnut out there.
That's very beautiful -- I can certainly understand that appealing to a buyer, for a Hauser-style guitar or otherwise!

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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by simonm » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:56 pm

Just a minor comment. I edited the post above with the images. The well figured set is the walnut. The black lines make me think of some Brazilian R that I've seen. The wood is reasonably well on the quarter too. I think there is enough figure in that to satisfy anyone.

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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:58 pm

Two beautiful sets of walnut and rosewood, Simon, and I am sure they both will make great Hauser "style" guitars. :wink:
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:20 pm

simonm wrote:
gjo wrote:A friend of mine once joked about the many grading systems saying, "Well, I am a master guitarmaker and passed all examinations, so every piece of wood I use is 'Mastergrade'." And I have to say that he is right because his guitars are very good.
Parallel to that logic, unless you are Mr or Ms Hauser, your guitars will not be Hausers whereas as if they build a Banjo or Uke, it will be a Hauser. :-)

Both these sets will probably end up as a Hauser "style" guitars. One is most likely going to be a keeper. I think that particular set of walnut is lovely. However, that doesn't tell us much about how it will sound.

This is the Walnut.
walnut.jpg
This is the Rosewood.
ir.jpg
Slight edit in case anyone was in doubt as to which was the walnut.
I like that walnut! Between those two, I would go for the walnut if it had a good tap.

Chris
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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by lucho » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:59 am

Waddy Thomson wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:28 am
Walnut is an excellent wood for a guitar! It also doesn't take a lot of figure to make a beautiful instrument, in my opinion! This was not an expensive set of wood!
ImageImageImageImage
I'm jumping with a question on walnut figure:

In the golden sapwood in the center of the back there are dark almost gray-ish block shapes. What causes them?

I see them on sets from a tonewood supplier that I've been shopping but they only seem to appear on the A/B Walnut.

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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by UKsteve » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:15 pm

On average, classical guitar purchasers are an extremely conservative bunch.
That argues for IRW.
Personally, the more I hear, the less it matters what you use because it's all about the luthier.
The last guitar I commissioned was padouk - turned out fabulously.

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Re: Walnut vs IR Hauser style

Post by prawnheed » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:06 pm

Personally, I’d not knowingly buy anything on the CITES lists.

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