Yamaha GC82S

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:11 pm

segobreawill wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:05 pm
No, it isn't at all subjective as to what I described. It was either very good (a few times, not often), or very bad (most of the times) when the humidity was at the higher end. It had nothing to do with my technique as it's the same technique as always. Nor did it have anything to do with the strings and the amount of wear. It was the wood(s) of the guitar reacting to the changes of moisture in the air that was very high. Why was it that there were a few (again, not many) days when my guitar did sound good, I cannot tell, but all the others factors were the same.

That said, I did notice that when the humidity would go back down to the 45-55% range, the sound was better and that the strings (the same strings) would be easier to tune up and keep in tune. Just my observations.
I wasn't suggesting that what you had described was possibly subjective...that pertained to my experience.

In my case, most days my technique is completely "in the groove", but from time to time, my fingers take a holiday. Also, I have been working to adjust my technique to the GC82S since I received it. It requires a different touch as compared to my GC-10.

Very curious that the sound was very good a few times with high humidity...must have been the exact phase of the moon when your top wood was harvested... :mrgreen:
Last edited by Beowulf on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:25 pm

Philosopherguy wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:59 pm
...In the end, it is all about playing the guitar and feeling happy with what comes out! If it takes "x" guitar to make you feel that way, then it is money well spent!

I saw a GC15D for sale not too long ago that I was seriously thinking of picking up. But, I just didn't have time to go and get it. I am still seriously considering a GC42C. Right now I just have too many guitars!

Martin
Yes siree...that's the ticket!

When I purchased my GC-10 ($750 ) in 1973, there was also a GC-15 ($1200) in the Luthier's shop which I tried out. My wife listened to me playing both and said the GC-10 was for me; the GC-15 was too much instrument for my playing level at that time...and it was too dear. In those days, Yamaha set the action on their instruments pretty high out of the shop and I had never heard that the action could be adjusted; I think the GC-15 was simply set too high for me to play easily. Reminds me of the dark ages of my early guitar days: my first teacher didn't even know of the existence of the apoyando stroke... :lol:

Douglas

P.S. If you have too many, sell the one you play the least to someone who will be delighted to play it. :wink:
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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segobreawill
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by segobreawill » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:29 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:11 pm

I wasn't suggesting that what you had described was possibly subjective...that pertained to my experience.

In my case, most days my technique is completely "in the groove", but from time to time, my fingers take a holiday. Also, I have been working to adjust my technique to the GC82S since I received it. It requires a different touch as compared to my GC-10.

Very curious that the sound was very good a few times with high humidity...must have been the exact phase of the moon when your top wood was harvested... :mrgreen:
Hmmm did that come out a little too strongly on my part? Sorry Doug, definitely not intentional! Okay, your experience then, I see now. Yeah, I know what you mean by your fingers not being in the groove on some days - and I figured correctly that that is what you meant. But no, my fingers were in the groove, I did pay attention to that particular aspect that may have caused those "flucuations". It was the humidity that shifted to very high levels that caused me great pains in tuning my guitar and keeping it in tune. I use a 440Hz tuning fork and my ears just couldn't get the right matching tones on many days when the humidity was at the 70+% R.H. Plainly put, the strings very often became too "stubborn" and refused to cooperate, as it were. It was an exercise in frustration pure and simple. On some days, after repeated futile attempts at getting my guitar in tune, I just stopped and began my practice with the strings "not quite right", if you get my meaning.

A few times, as I said, the strings acted normal, as far as tuning them and having them more or less stay in tune was concerned. Yeah, I know: Very curious to know why.
haha No, I don't have one of those personally handcrafted guitars where the luthier used an Alpine "moon wood" Spruce top. That would be way too esoteric for my humble factory model. lmao

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:59 pm

segobreawill wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:29 pm
Beowulf wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:11 pm

I wasn't suggesting that what you had described was possibly subjective...that pertained to my experience.

In my case, most days my technique is completely "in the groove", but from time to time, my fingers take a holiday. Also, I have been working to adjust my technique to the GC82S since I received it. It requires a different touch as compared to my GC-10.

Very curious that the sound was very good a few times with high humidity...must have been the exact phase of the moon when your top wood was harvested... :mrgreen:
Hmmm did that come out a little too strongly on my part? Sorry Doug, definitely not intentional! Okay, your experience then, I see now. Yeah, I know what you mean by your fingers not being in the groove on some days - and I figured correctly that that is what you meant. But no, my fingers were in the groove, I did pay attention to that particular aspect that may have caused those "flucuations". It was the humidity that shifted to very high levels that caused me great pains in tuning my guitar and keeping it in tune. I use a 440Hz tuning fork and my ears just couldn't get the right matching tones on many days when the humidity was at the 70+% R.H. Plainly put, the strings very often became too "stubborn" and refused to cooperate, as it were. It was an exercise in frustration pure and simple. On some days, after repeated futile attempts at getting my guitar in tune, I just stopped and began my practice with the strings "not quite right", if you get my meaning.

A few times, as I said, the strings acted normal, as far as tuning them and having them more or less stay in tune was concerned. Yeah, I know: Very curious to know why.
haha No, I don't have one of those personally handcrafted guitars where the luthier used an Alpine "moon wood" Spruce top. That would be way too esoteric for my humble factory model. lmao
No problem...text communication can be tricky as pertains to subtle nuances...just wanted to make sure.

Yes, I concur with the effects of 70+% R.H.. That was why I was surprised as the R.H was around the 60% level.

A further thought just struck me: the strings themselves are affected by humidity and temperature. So, perhaps the changes are not to do with the wood alone?
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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segobreawill
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by segobreawill » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:22 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:59 pm
A further thought just struck me: the strings themselves are affected by humidity and temperature. So, perhaps the changes are not to do with the wood alone?
Yes, absolutely! I could see how the fibers in the wound strings in particular could be affected.

This was definitely a summer to have a dehumidifier. I was seriously considering buying one - "this is the summer I get one", and all that - but, reading through COUNTLESS consumer reviews about MULTIPLE brands of dehumidifiers, I just could not commit to spending several hundred dollars on what one reviewer aptly described as "... probably the single-most unreliable product being manufactured today"! I could not even begin to describe how my level of disgust grew with reading reviews of faulty units - sometimes right out of the box!

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:34 pm

segobreawill wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Beowulf wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:59 pm
A further thought just struck me: the strings themselves are affected by humidity and temperature. So, perhaps the changes are not to do with the wood alone?
Yes, absolutely! I could see how the fibers in the wound strings in particular could be affected.

This was definitely a summer to have a dehumidifier. I was seriously considering buying one - "this is the summer I get one", and all that - but, reading through COUNTLESS consumer reviews about MULTIPLE brands of dehumidifiers, I just could not commit to spending several hundred dollars on what one reviewer aptly described as "... probably the single-most unreliable product being manufactured today"! I could not even begin to describe how my level of disgust grew with reading reviews of faulty units - sometimes right out of the box!
The days of quality and reliability have abandoned us: buy cheap & replace soon. You will be suffering from DAS: Dehumidifier Acquisition Syndrome, if you aren't careful... :lol:
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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segobreawill
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by segobreawill » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:12 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:34 pm
The days of quality and reliability have abandoned us: buy cheap & replace soon. You will be suffering from DAS: Dehumidifier Acquisition Syndrome, if you aren't careful... :lol:
DAS and GAS! It's been a hell of a summer for both actually! :cry:

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MassiveBeard
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by MassiveBeard » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:28 am

Whoa! Congrats!

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:00 pm

Well...an update on strings. This could go in the strings forum, however I think it bears more on the purchase and assessment of the GC82S:

I received a set of Hannabach SS 815 HT strings from the dealer with my instrument, so I decided to give them a good plucking. It has been about two months with them, so I can speak to the results with extended use.

First, the good: even, balanced and somewhat mellow tone, easy to dig in or play lightly.

Second, the bad: less colour, life and tone colour variation than I would like, harder to play, less resonant vitality and although I couldn't say the top is being choked off, it certainly seems to be tending in that direction.

Altogether, as Snoopy would say:
snoopy-bleah.jpg
I have gone back to the Augustine Regal/Blue (came on the GC82S from Yamaha) and instantly, a smile came over my face and my fingers said, "Yes!" The guitar came alive, the lovely resonant colour was back, projection increased, tone colour and dynamics increased and playing was noticeably easier.

So, why such a difference? Well, Yamaha GC82S has (I believe) a thinner and more lightly braced top than my GC-10 (which doesn't show such large variations with different strings) and the Hannabach strings are higher tension in the basses than the Augustine Blues. Overall, the Hannabachs have a total tension of 96.13 lbs compared to 94.76 lbs for the Augustines. This is not a large difference, however in the basses the difference is significant. In addition the Augustine strings are thicker (except for the A string). Here are the numbers:

Hannabach Augustine
e: 16.53 e: 18.81
b: 13.67 b: 14.12
g: 14.77 g: 13.78
D: 17.2 D: 16.41
A: 16.76 A: 15.75
E: 17.2 E: 15.89

The Hannabach basses have an average tension of 17.05 lbs, compared to 16.02 for the Augustines. I can definitely feel that and the playability is affected. The Hannabach trebles have an average tension of 14.99 lbs compared to 15.57 for the Augustines. With the trebles the difference is in the opposite direction, but only about half as large. The one string that stands out is the Augustine top e at 18.81 lbs. Actually that string really sings out and although I do not notice any playing issues, I may try an Augustine Imperial e.

I think Yamaha used the Augustine strings to adjust and compare design variations on the GC82S and to voice the instrument. Given that it was designed using the tone references of Santos Hernandez and Hauser I, following on Segovia's advice for the GC71, that makes sense. Segovia did like the Augustine strings on his 1937 Hauser.
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1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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HNLim
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by HNLim » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:52 pm

I am sure Segovia didn't put his face on the Augustine String package for free.
1980 Yamaha GC30A - BRW/Spruce
1984 Yamaha GC70 - BRW/Spruce
2015 Sen #5 - BRW/Spruce
2017 LHN - BRW/Spruce

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:30 am

HNLim wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:52 pm
I am sure Segovia didn't put his face on the Augustine String package for free.
Late in 1946/ early 1947 when he was in desperate need of strings (there was a severe shortage of gut strings during WWII), Segovia had the help of General Lindenman in approaching the du Pont family to make some strings from nylon for him. This was a beginning, but not ultimately successful as du Pont evidenced no interest in manufacturing strings. A bit later he met Albert & Rose Augustine. Segovia continued to encourage Albert Augustine to take up the endeavor...and he did, with ultimate success. Segovia endorsed the strings...of course, and he remained eternally grateful! He considered that all classical guitarists owed Albert Augustine a debt. Segovia's account of these events can be found in "The Guitar Review", no.17, 1955.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Philosopherguy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:43 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:00 pm

I have gone back to the Augustine Regal/Blue (came on the GC82S from Yamaha) and instantly, a smile came over my face and my fingers said, "Yes!" The guitar came alive, the lovely resonant colour was back, projection increased, tone colour and dynamics increased and playing was noticeably easier.
My Ramirez guitars sound great with Augustine Regal strings too. I think they are just a well made and designed string. Particularly, I think the nylon has a nice feel and size to it that makes the strings quite comfortable to play, even though they are "high tension".

How is your GC82s coming along? Opening up nicely?

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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HNLim
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by HNLim » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:32 am

I think a guitar has to be good to start with. No string in the world can make a bad guitar sounds good.
1980 Yamaha GC30A - BRW/Spruce
1984 Yamaha GC70 - BRW/Spruce
2015 Sen #5 - BRW/Spruce
2017 LHN - BRW/Spruce

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:56 pm

Philosopherguy wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:43 pm

My Ramirez guitars sound great with Augustine Regal strings too. I think they are just a well made and designed string. Particularly, I think the nylon has a nice feel and size to it that makes the strings quite comfortable to play, even though they are "high tension".

How is your GC82s coming along? Opening up nicely?

Martin
Very nicely! The sound as noted in my post above changed about 2 months ago. The very slight edginess is gone and the sound has deepened and become less "white" in tone colour.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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Beowulf
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Re: Yamaha GC82S

Post by Beowulf » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:55 pm

Another minor update: a top e string thinness/edginess that had been bothering me has been resolved. I knew it had to do with my "a" finger nail shape, but no amount of fine adjustment with filing/smoothing would solve the problem. It was particularly annoying/disheartening as my tone has always been a strong point. It was all the more apparent with the GC82S due to its revealing nature.

The problem was a combination of ridges, sharp 90° curves at each side and a hook in the middle. This also made playing more tricky: finger gymnastics to try and achieve matching tone colour, which were never satisfactory and threw my technique for a loop.

Solution: my fully temperature adjustable soldering iron. I set it to around 200°C and used the shank (not the tip!) to gently heat the nail (5-7 secs) while adjusting the curvature as desired with an appropriately shaped piece of metal. Once the nail cools (which only takes about 15 secs) the shape is retained...at least until my next wash/rinse cycle.

Ahh...the tone is back and playing is MUCH easier! To paraphrase B. B. King: "The Shrill is Gone".
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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