We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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spronev
Posts: 328
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by spronev » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:39 pm

rinneby wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:01 pm
spronev wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:46 pm
Can anyone help with placing this model in the Mitsuru Tamura line from the 1970s in terms of price in 1972? See attached pictures - the model number is "B" which I have never seen before. I have had a model 600 and 800 from 1972 as well as model 3000 from 1977. This model "B" looks a lot like my model 800 except for having a different rosette. The tuners look like they are 39 mm spacing and my model 800 also had 39 mm tuners (unlike the model 600 and 3000 which had 35 mm tuners). Have you seen letters used as model number?

Svilen
By the looks of the tuners and the "line" at the heel, as well as the headstock, my guess is that this guitar is equal to model 600 at the same time. So 60.000 yen. It's a mid/(almost)high-end guitar. Why it's called B I have no clue. If the scale is less than 660 mm, maybe it was some kind of special model, and called B for that reason? Or something went wrong in the production. These are just wild guesses :)

It looks like nice dark rosewood by the way.

/Jon
Thanks Jon!

From the looks of it, it is either 60,000 or 80,000 yen in 1972, I just can't decide which one. My model 600 did not have the ebony strip in the back of the neck while my model 800 did and the model 800 back and sides were darker rosewood than the model 600 which makes me believe that this model "B" is likely 80,000 yen and maybe even identical to the model 800, but I'm not sure it's possible to know with 100% certainty.

Svilen

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KenO
Amateur luthier
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:06 am
Location: Japan

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by KenO » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:05 pm

Hello WWLJCG-DC,
Thanks for sharing all of your new acquisitions - beautiful finds! Jon's (and the other's) knowledgeable commentary and follow-up are thoroughly enjoyable too. A friend of mine who was an avid player in her youth recently dropped this beautiful Ryoji Matsuoka off at my shop. I think it's either a '68 or '69 model...before his labels were written in English. The label reads:

1st line: 手工品 = shyukou shina (hand crafted product)
2nd line: 松岡良治 = Matsuoka Ryoji
3rd line: 特壱号 = toku-ichi-gou (special first edition)
The serial number is 127001

Image

This guitar features all solid construction, and the table seems to be cedar with some kind of rosewood back and sides. Totally surprised by the bracing pattern as it is not just a copy of the Spanish Masters, but a variation on a Hauser or Bouchet.

Image

Scale length is at 650mm with a nut width of 50mm. The grain of the fretboard and bridge look very unusual to my eyes. I've been unsuccessful in gathering much information about this guitar (a bit embarrassing since I live in Japan!). Saddle and nut are bone, and after a thorough cleaning/set-up, I was very pleased to find that this guitar is easy to play (6th string 12th fret - 3.8mm and 1st string 12th fret - 3.2mm) and has a beautiful sweet gentle voice. However, she is quite loud.

Not as refined in finish or craftsmanship compared to my '68 Nogami, but that's to be expected as this Matsuoka sold for about one-sixth of the price back in the day. With regard to tone, the mids and highs are not as defined as the spruce topped Nogami, but full and warm (probably due to the cedar top). Regardless, her voice is stunning. Her serial number 127 "001" suggest a very early build too. I've tried to look through this thread and searched the Del Camp website (and the web), but came up empty. Although the simple tuning pegs suggest an entry level model, the full solid construction suggests otherwise...a bit confused.

Any thoughts on this vintage Matsuoka build? I'm unsure as to the wood used in the construction of this beautiful instrument, and any information you haveI would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your consideration!
'06 Asturias Prelude S; '02 Yamaha CG101; '00 Ovation CS249-4Y; '68 S. Nogami Concert Tenor; '67 Hashimoto No. 232; '?? Mystery Guitar

tkoehler1
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:42 am

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by tkoehler1 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:41 am


It could be the thickness of the string or a flaw in manufacturing that is causing something to be off. Experiment a little to see what you can do.

Good luck!
Martin
Thanks for the thoughts. I think you may have hit the problem here - in retrospect the G string was a thick white (nylgut?) odd string. I'll see how it comes back from the shop (restrung and new pegs).

:merci:

TK

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rinneby
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:52 am
Location: Sweden

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:10 am

spronev wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:39 pm
rinneby wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:01 pm
spronev wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:46 pm
Can anyone help with placing this model in the Mitsuru Tamura line from the 1970s in terms of price in 1972? See attached pictures - the model number is "B" which I have never seen before. I have had a model 600 and 800 from 1972 as well as model 3000 from 1977. This model "B" looks a lot like my model 800 except for having a different rosette. The tuners look like they are 39 mm spacing and my model 800 also had 39 mm tuners (unlike the model 600 and 3000 which had 35 mm tuners). Have you seen letters used as model number?

Svilen
By the looks of the tuners and the "line" at the heel, as well as the headstock, my guess is that this guitar is equal to model 600 at the same time. So 60.000 yen. It's a mid/(almost)high-end guitar. Why it's called B I have no clue. If the scale is less than 660 mm, maybe it was some kind of special model, and called B for that reason? Or something went wrong in the production. These are just wild guesses :)

It looks like nice dark rosewood by the way.

/Jon
Thanks Jon!

From the looks of it, it is either 60,000 or 80,000 yen in 1972, I just can't decide which one. My model 600 did not have the ebony strip in the back of the neck while my model 800 did and the model 800 back and sides were darker rosewood than the model 600 which makes me believe that this model "B" is likely 80,000 yen and maybe even identical to the model 800, but I'm not sure it's possible to know with 100% certainty.

Svilen
Hi Svilen, yes it could be a "800" as well, I didn't think about the ebony strip. Have you played the guitar yet?

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1971 - Marcelino Lopez Nieto
1976 - Hideo Ida
2017 - Karel Dedain
2017 - Tobias Braun

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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spronev
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:03 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by spronev » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:13 pm

rinneby wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:10 am
spronev wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:39 pm
rinneby wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:01 pm

By the looks of the tuners and the "line" at the heel, as well as the headstock, my guess is that this guitar is equal to model 600 at the same time. So 60.000 yen. It's a mid/(almost)high-end guitar. Why it's called B I have no clue. If the scale is less than 660 mm, maybe it was some kind of special model, and called B for that reason? Or something went wrong in the production. These are just wild guesses :)

It looks like nice dark rosewood by the way.

/Jon
Thanks Jon!

From the looks of it, it is either 60,000 or 80,000 yen in 1972, I just can't decide which one. My model 600 did not have the ebony strip in the back of the neck while my model 800 did and the model 800 back and sides were darker rosewood than the model 600 which makes me believe that this model "B" is likely 80,000 yen and maybe even identical to the model 800, but I'm not sure it's possible to know with 100% certainty.

Svilen
Hi Svilen, yes it could be a "800" as well, I didn't think about the ebony strip. Have you played the guitar yet?

/Jon
This is not my guitar. Somebody asked me for information about it.

Svilen

Francisco
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Francisco » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:23 pm

I don't know if this has already been posted. Classical Guitar magazine has an article about the history of Japanese classical guitar making. Here is the link:
http://classicalguitarmagazine.com/fret ... l-guitars/
2014 Yamaha GC42S

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rinneby
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Location: Sweden

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:21 am

Francisco wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:23 pm
I don't know if this has already been posted. Classical Guitar magazine has an article about the history of Japanese classical guitar making. Here is the link:
http://classicalguitarmagazine.com/fret ... l-guitars/
Hi Francisco. Strangely enough, I don't think it has been posted. Much appreciated my friend! This is a very interesting read.

Kind regards from Sweden
/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1971 - Marcelino Lopez Nieto
1976 - Hideo Ida
2017 - Karel Dedain
2017 - Tobias Braun

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

Carter53
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:36 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Carter53 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 pm

I wonder if we can expect guitars made by the Nakade's, Tamura's, Yairi's and their contemporaries to appreciate over the next decade or so. Right now, most go for less than new factory guitars coming from China.
1964 Sakazo Nakade "D"
1980 Kuniyoshi Matsui M-10
1980 Yukio Nakade 1000
1971 Masaji Nobe
1983 Asturias John Mills JM-15

Q: "What's worse, ignorance or apathy?"
A: "I don't know and don't care."

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Christopher Langley
Student of the online lessons
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Location: Marthasville, Missouri

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:57 pm

Gonna be watching this thread.. very interested :)
How strange it is to be anything at all.

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rinneby
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Location: Sweden

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Carter53 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 pm
I wonder if we can expect guitars made by the Nakade's, Tamura's, Yairi's and their contemporaries to appreciate over the next decade or so. Right now, most go for less than new factory guitars coming from China.
Guitars from Kohno and Sakurai as well as the Nakade, Imai and Nobe families are safe bets. Some Masaru Matano and Tamura/Matsuoka/Yairi guitars and early high-end Yamaha GC-series will without any doubt rise in value in the future too. How could they not? :) Others are harder to predict. Still, as we all know, there are hidden treasures out there, still to be found. Especially from the 60s and 70s.

By the way, have you played the "new" Tamura?

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1971 - Marcelino Lopez Nieto
1976 - Hideo Ida
2017 - Karel Dedain
2017 - Tobias Braun

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

Carter53
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:36 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Carter53 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Hi Jon,
Yes, the new Tamura is a keeper for sure. I restrung it with a set of Aquila Cristallo and the notes ring clearly, forcefully, and responsively. The sustain/reverb is haunting on slower pieces and the attack is lively on quicker tunes. Volume is even across the fret board. I can't believe my good fortune.
1964 Sakazo Nakade "D"
1980 Kuniyoshi Matsui M-10
1980 Yukio Nakade 1000
1971 Masaji Nobe
1983 Asturias John Mills JM-15

Q: "What's worse, ignorance or apathy?"
A: "I don't know and don't care."

Carter53
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:36 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Carter53 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:16 am

rinneby wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm
Carter53 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 pm
I wonder if we can expect guitars made by the Nakade's, Tamura's, Yairi's and their contemporaries to appreciate over the next decade or so. Right now, most go for less than new factory guitars coming from China.
Guitars from Kohno and Sakurai as well as the Nakade, Imai and Nobe families are safe bets. Some Masaru Matano and Tamura/Matsuoka/Yairi guitars and early high-end Yamaha GC-series will without any doubt rise in value in the future too. How could they not? :) Others are harder to predict. Still, as we all know, there are hidden treasures out there, still to be found. Especially from the 60s and 70s.

By the way, have you played the "new" Tamura?

/Jon
I see by your signature that you have diversified with instruments with origins outside Japan. Obviously, you chose them for a reason. How do Kohnos, Sakamotos and other Japanese guitars match up?
1964 Sakazo Nakade "D"
1980 Kuniyoshi Matsui M-10
1980 Yukio Nakade 1000
1971 Masaji Nobe
1983 Asturias John Mills JM-15

Q: "What's worse, ignorance or apathy?"
A: "I don't know and don't care."

User avatar
rinneby
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:52 am
Location: Sweden

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:32 am

Carter53 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:16 am
rinneby wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm
Carter53 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 pm
I wonder if we can expect guitars made by the Nakade's, Tamura's, Yairi's and their contemporaries to appreciate over the next decade or so. Right now, most go for less than new factory guitars coming from China.
Guitars from Kohno and Sakurai as well as the Nakade, Imai and Nobe families are safe bets. Some Masaru Matano and Tamura/Matsuoka/Yairi guitars and early high-end Yamaha GC-series will without any doubt rise in value in the future too. How could they not? :) Others are harder to predict. Still, as we all know, there are hidden treasures out there, still to be found. Especially from the 60s and 70s.

By the way, have you played the "new" Tamura?

/Jon
I see by your signature that you have diversified with instruments with origins outside Japan. Obviously, you chose them for a reason. How do Kohnos, Sakamotos and other Japanese guitars match up?
I like to change my signature from time to time. The guitars shown are my current main guitars. I still love my Japanese guitars and play them from time to time: Rokutaro Nakade A2, Asturias C150S, Ryoji Matsuoka No.20 and the Aria AC-50, to name a few.

By the way. Today I will get back my Seizo Shinano No.83, with new frets. Haven't played it for 6 month. I remember I liked it back then :)

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1971 - Marcelino Lopez Nieto
1976 - Hideo Ida
2017 - Karel Dedain
2017 - Tobias Braun

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

Carter53
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:36 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Carter53 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:41 pm

Yes. But, if one can generalize, as the author did when referring to exports exhibiting "Japanese character," how do they match up as a group?
1964 Sakazo Nakade "D"
1980 Kuniyoshi Matsui M-10
1980 Yukio Nakade 1000
1971 Masaji Nobe
1983 Asturias John Mills JM-15

Q: "What's worse, ignorance or apathy?"
A: "I don't know and don't care."

User avatar
rinneby
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:52 am
Location: Sweden

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:40 pm

Carter53 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:41 pm
Yes. But, if one can generalize, as the author did when referring to exports exhibiting "Japanese character," how do they match up as a group?
I'm not 100% I understand the question?

Kind regards
/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1971 - Marcelino Lopez Nieto
1976 - Hideo Ida
2017 - Karel Dedain
2017 - Tobias Braun

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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